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Post by levine on Jan 3, 2024 15:45:56 GMT -6
I dont disagree and at this point its more of a "thought excercise" as to what we could turn him into. A real 4 would be good and a real 4 who can hit the 3 would be best. That plus a backup PG would be killer. I was leaning towards running it back but the more I think about it, the more I think that we'll never get the value out of KAT that we're paying him. And that salary is just so limiting. Doesnt mean he's not a great player...but I just dont think he's a winning enough player to justify the cost. The offensive fouls are still there. I dont think that its going to change at this point. But i also fully expect that if he went to a larger market those offensive fouls would disappear. Well and the bolded is the crux of many people's (mine included) argument for why KAT should go. He IS that. He IS a real 4 who can shoot the 3. The problem is that he won't which is just a further indication that he doesn't do what the team truly needs. You almost can't even call it winning because the team is winning. But they're winning in spite of him and rarely because of him. If he truly cared what was best for the team, he would've put a stop to the offensive fouls and would be popping 10 3s per game. But alas... I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games).
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 3, 2024 20:15:48 GMT -6
Well and the bolded is the crux of many people's (mine included) argument for why KAT should go. He IS that. He IS a real 4 who can shoot the 3. The problem is that he won't which is just a further indication that he doesn't do what the team truly needs. You almost can't even call it winning because the team is winning. But they're winning in spite of him and rarely because of him. If he truly cared what was best for the team, he would've put a stop to the offensive fouls and would be popping 10 3s per game. But alas... I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games). So are we getting $50 million of value out of him? Thats where I'm going with this. But I'm with Quinn in that I dont think he's doing enough to influence winning for that money.
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Post by quinn on Jan 3, 2024 20:20:39 GMT -6
Well and the bolded is the crux of many people's (mine included) argument for why KAT should go. He IS that. He IS a real 4 who can shoot the 3. The problem is that he won't which is just a further indication that he doesn't do what the team truly needs. You almost can't even call it winning because the team is winning. But they're winning in spite of him and rarely because of him. If he truly cared what was best for the team, he would've put a stop to the offensive fouls and would be popping 10 3s per game. But alas... I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games). Maybe it is an exaggeration and I probably do focus too much on the games where he's a non-factor and we still win, but it's because of the financial crunch we all know we're about to be facing. If he's not actively helping the team win, which his stats would suggest he is, then that's a problem. Also, that offensive foul number may look like it's not much, but he's leading the league with 29. Giannis is 2nd at 24. Embiid is 3rd at 19... That's not acceptable and needs to change when you're the self-proclaimed best shooting big man in history. I get very frustrated in thinking about what KAT COULD be doing vs what he is doing.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 4, 2024 13:13:43 GMT -6
The offensive fouls are still there. I dont think that its going to change at this point. But i also fully expect that if he went to a larger market those offensive fouls would disappear. Sorry, but I disagree completely on KAT's fouling changing with a potential trade. I just don' think there's an anti-Wolves conspiracy. Kevin Love drew tons of fouls when he played here. So did Jimmy Butler. Rubio drew fouls too. I'm not saying that refs don't call things differently for different players, but I've never seen any evidence that shows player FT rates significantly changed with a team change. KAT is just one of those guys who doesn't know how to truly draw fouls (or how to avoid them) and I don't think that would change with a trade. It's a "skill" or talent if you want to call it that. Put another way, do you think Embiid's foul drawing would change if we could magically swap him for KAT? Embiid would still live at the FT line because that's him.
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 4, 2024 14:00:05 GMT -6
I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games). So are we getting $50 million of value out of him? Thats where I'm going with this. But I'm with Quinn in that I dont think he's doing enough to influence winning for that money. Still waiting for an answer on this one.
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Post by Nick K on Jan 4, 2024 21:31:50 GMT -6
Well and the bolded is the crux of many people's (mine included) argument for why KAT should go. He IS that. He IS a real 4 who can shoot the 3. The problem is that he won't which is just a further indication that he doesn't do what the team truly needs. You almost can't even call it winning because the team is winning. But they're winning in spite of him and rarely because of him. If he truly cared what was best for the team, he would've put a stop to the offensive fouls and would be popping 10 3s per game. But alas... I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games). Nailed it! I don't know exactly what people expect sometimes. As for him not shooting more 3's I really think he's doing what the coaches want him to. The coaches don't want Kat and Ant to chuck up 3's all the time as the ball gets sticky. It's a team game.
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 5, 2024 13:59:47 GMT -6
I think that's a massive exaggeration. I get that perceptions are colored by his substandard play since tweaking his knee (why won't Finch sit him?). But even with a handful of poor games lately, he's still giving us 21.4 PPG on 51/41/90 shooting, 9.2 RPG and he's been a positive on defense. And the offensive fouls are very frustrating, but they're less than 1 per game (he has 29 in 31 games). Nailed it! I don't know exactly what people expect sometimes. As for him not shooting more 3's I really think he's doing what the coaches want him to. The coaches don't want Kat and Ant to chuck up 3's all the time as the ball gets sticky. It's a team game.
Finch has said multiple times, even over the last stretch of games,, that he wants Karl to shoot more 3's. So its not what the coaches are asking him to do. I truly do believe he thinks that when his shot isnt falling its not going to fall and why take more shots that will lower his percentage. KAT has always struck me as a guy that watches his stats.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 14:04:43 GMT -6
KAT has always struck me as a guy that watches his stats. Makes sense, everyone wants that 50/40/90 wrist watch.
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Post by tmirvin on Jan 5, 2024 15:19:37 GMT -6
2nd qtr did us in. Great comeback but just not enough. Towns was really good tonight. Knicks are a better team with OG. Toronto might have won the trade but the Knicks are better because of it. I think the Knicks won that trade. Last season the raptor were asking for 3 FRP's for OG. I understand he's in his last year of his contract but Barrett was considered a "toxic" contract by a few unnamed GM's and was a neutral at best (and probably only considered an asset by Toronto since he's from there). The high second is nice and all, but unless there's a foreigner with buyout, which I don't think is a thing anymore, isn't great. Quickly might further his development, but if he doesn't he's a bench player. Whoever gets the best player wins the trade. Isn't that what they say? Well OG is easily the best player. Thibs finally gets a stopper, yet he could have drafted him but chose Patton who never played. OG was hurt at draft time which allowed him to slide and with thibs's reluctance to play rookies, it made too much sense- especially because the wolves didn't have many wings at the time. Yet, he drafted a big. God, I hated the thibs era.
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Post by levine on Jan 5, 2024 15:42:58 GMT -6
Quickly might further his development, but if he doesn't he's a bench player. Whoever gets the best player wins the trade. Isn't that what they say? Well OG is easily the best player. Quickley is a stud that was drastically underused in NY. He's already an outstanding individual/team defender and 3 point shooter. This is a kid who has already had a 40 point game, a 16 rebound game and a 15 assist game. He was scoring 15 PPG in just 24 minutes for NY, and has bumped it up to 20 in 31 minutes for Toronto. 45/41/86. He's only getting 4 Assists, but Toronto really shares the ball with Barnes and Siakim initiating a lot. He's also averaging 0.5 TOs/Game. Of the realistic KAT trades, one centered around him was always my favorite. And at 24 years-old, he could've been part of a Big 3 with Ant and McD for the next decade.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 6, 2024 11:15:17 GMT -6
Quickly might further his development, but if he doesn't he's a bench player. Whoever gets the best player wins the trade. Isn't that what they say? Well OG is easily the best player. Quickley is a stud that was drastically underused in NY. He's already an outstanding individual/team defender and 3 point shooter. This is a kid who has already had a 40 point game, a 16 rebound game and a 15 assist game. He was scoring 15 PPG in just 24 minutes for NY, and has bumped it up to 20 in 31 minutes for Toronto. 45/41/86. He's only getting 4 Assists, but Toronto really shares the ball with Barnes and Siakim initiating a lot. He's also averaging 0.5 TOs/Game. Of the realistic KAT trades, one centered around him was always my favorite. And at 24 years-old, he could've been part of a Big 3 with Ant and McD for the next decade. OG is a solid 2 way player, but I don't see a Mikal Bridges level extra gear there with him.
Quickley has the kind of game that could expand with opportunity and maturation. Maybe he won't reach OGs level, but I think it's possible that in 3-4 years it could play out that Toronto got the better player.
OG and Quickley are just 2 more examples of how you can fill out your team with mid/later first round draft picks.
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Post by Nick K on Jan 6, 2024 17:23:30 GMT -6
KAT has always struck me as a guy that watches his stats. Makes sense, everyone wants that 50/40/90 wrist watch. I really think the argument that Kat only watches his stats is absurd and ridiculous.
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Post by Nick K on Jan 6, 2024 17:26:46 GMT -6
Quickley is a stud that was drastically underused in NY. He's already an outstanding individual/team defender and 3 point shooter. This is a kid who has already had a 40 point game, a 16 rebound game and a 15 assist game. He was scoring 15 PPG in just 24 minutes for NY, and has bumped it up to 20 in 31 minutes for Toronto. 45/41/86. He's only getting 4 Assists, but Toronto really shares the ball with Barnes and Siakim initiating a lot. He's also averaging 0.5 TOs/Game. Of the realistic KAT trades, one centered around him was always my favorite. And at 24 years-old, he could've been part of a Big 3 with Ant and McD for the next decade. OG is a solid 2 way player, but I don't see a Mikal Bridges level extra gear there with him.
Quickley has the kind of game that could expand with opportunity and maturation. Maybe he won't reach OGs level, but I think it's possible that in 3-4 years it could play out that Toronto got the better player.
OG and Quickley are just 2 more examples of how you can fill out your team with mid/later first round draft picks.
Yep. Too bad OG wasn't good enough for us to take.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jan 9, 2024 11:09:55 GMT -6
Quickly might further his development, but if he doesn't he's a bench player. Whoever gets the best player wins the trade. Isn't that what they say? Well OG is easily the best player. Quickley is a stud that was drastically underused in NY. He's already an outstanding individual/team defender and 3 point shooter. This is a kid who has already had a 40 point game, a 16 rebound game and a 15 assist game. He was scoring 15 PPG in just 24 minutes for NY, and has bumped it up to 20 in 31 minutes for Toronto. 45/41/86. He's only getting 4 Assists, but Toronto really shares the ball with Barnes and Siakim initiating a lot. He's also averaging 0.5 TOs/Game. Of the realistic KAT trades, one centered around him was always my favorite. And at 24 years-old, he could've been part of a Big 3 with Ant and McD for the next decade. Quickley would be a target or should be a target for the Wolves. Great replacement for Conley. Would probably have to give up a key player Towns or Ant and I would be really tempted if we got Barrett and a 1st rounder thrown in. Reason is Quickley is going to be a stud and fills our need at PG. Barrett is also a stud. If we move Ant then Barrett auto fills his spot. Quickley steps up as primary PG and Conley as backup. Move Towns for salary relief and a backup PF and move Naz into the starting lineup.
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Post by levine on Jan 9, 2024 11:24:40 GMT -6
Quickley is a stud that was drastically underused in NY. He's already an outstanding individual/team defender and 3 point shooter. This is a kid who has already had a 40 point game, a 16 rebound game and a 15 assist game. He was scoring 15 PPG in just 24 minutes for NY, and has bumped it up to 20 in 31 minutes for Toronto. 45/41/86. He's only getting 4 Assists, but Toronto really shares the ball with Barnes and Siakim initiating a lot. He's also averaging 0.5 TOs/Game. Of the realistic KAT trades, one centered around him was always my favorite. And at 24 years-old, he could've been part of a Big 3 with Ant and McD for the next decade. Quickley would be a target or should be a target for the Wolves. Great replacement for Conley. Would probably have to give up a key player Towns or Ant and I would be really tempted if we got Barrett and a 1st rounder thrown in. Reason is Quickley is going to be a stud and fills our need at PG. Barrett is also a stud. If we move Ant then Barrett auto fills his spot. Quickley steps up as primary PG and Conley as backup. Move Towns for salary relief and a backup PF and move Naz into the starting lineup. I think we missed the window on Quickley. Knicks would've made him a centerpiece of a KAT deal. He doesn't make much sense in Toronto. No way I'd trade Ant for him. And I'm not a big Barrett fan.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jan 9, 2024 12:08:33 GMT -6
Quickley would be a target or should be a target for the Wolves. Great replacement for Conley. Would probably have to give up a key player Towns or Ant and I would be really tempted if we got Barrett and a 1st rounder thrown in. Reason is Quickley is going to be a stud and fills our need at PG. Barrett is also a stud. If we move Ant then Barrett auto fills his spot. Quickley steps up as primary PG and Conley as backup. Move Towns for salary relief and a backup PF and move Naz into the starting lineup. I think we missed the window on Quickley. Knicks would've made him a centerpiece of a KAT deal. He doesn't make much sense in Toronto. No way I'd trade Ant for him. And I'm not a big Barrett fan. I know the Knicks fan think they won that trade but I would disagree. Toronto is very solid. And as usual Thibs didn't use either Barrett or Quickley very well (broken record) so I think Toronto is better off. As for Ant, I'm still puzzled about him. He's got the skills and ability to be the man but he sure leaves that billing to KAT and KAT is not it. Coach needs to sit them both down and say (a or b is the man unless they can't prove it and the other takes over). So you might say I'm a bit disappointed in ANT, just wish he would take over and be the man.
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Post by levine on Jan 9, 2024 12:39:08 GMT -6
He's 22 years old. He's so far from a finished product.
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Post by wunderwolf on Jan 9, 2024 13:02:57 GMT -6
Quickley would be a target or should be a target for the Wolves. Great replacement for Conley. Would probably have to give up a key player Towns or Ant and I would be really tempted if we got Barrett and a 1st rounder thrown in. Reason is Quickley is going to be a stud and fills our need at PG. Barrett is also a stud. If we move Ant then Barrett auto fills his spot. Quickley steps up as primary PG and Conley as backup. Move Towns for salary relief and a backup PF and move Naz into the starting lineup. What? I can't believe anyone would write those four words
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