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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 9:48:57 GMT -6
Just when were we going to hit that ceiling? KAT averaged 19ppg in the playoffs last year. He's 29 this year, are people really expecting him to improve? This is one more distinction I want to say between stats and less stats oriented. If the measure for how well Kat played is he had 19 points a game versus like 22, you're missing the fact that he was awesome last playoffs. Could he score more in NY maybe, but Kat's value, and no player IMO including Ant is about how many points they score. Ant can dominate a game and score 20. Kat's best games were often around that low 20's in points. Both Ant and Naz will score more this season, but that's all it is. This is, and the individual efficiency correlating to winning, are my too biggest gripes with the analytic and majority take. Kat had the most effective playoffs of his career, and according to my points tracker it was not his most points. If we weren't all dumbfounded by why he's not iso-ing, taking guys off the dribble we might have some idea what's going on out there. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 9:51:03 GMT -6
The high usage iso scoring junk really jacked with what people think matters in terms of winning.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 1, 2024 10:11:33 GMT -6
The rebounding drop-off from KAT to Naz is very troublesome. And Naz will never defend guys like Jokic like KAT can. But I do believe Naz is on his way to being a better perimeter and "in space" defender than KAT. And the ball definitely sticks less with Naz. He might be the quickest decision-maker on the team. But there is not much drop-off in shooting: Naz Reid shot .414 on 5.0 3PA/Game last year. Kat was .416 on 5.3 3PA/Game last year. And these tend to back that up: Naz just shoots more 3s too. Per minute he gets more up and they're a bigger part of his shot diet by attempt rate. I agree that Naz needs to rebound better. KAT grabbed 15% more rebounds when on the court than Naz last year with both having their lowest Reb% of their careers. I'd have a big concern about Naz as a center for the future, but as a 4 his rebounding isn't as much of concern. KAT hasn't been as good rebounding as a 4 either. Naz can also get better on defense too although he gives more shot blocking than KAT. KAT certainly provided more positional size vs. Jokic, but Naz has the potential to guard in a much more versatile way. KAT doesn't have near the footspeed of Naz. Naz seems ahead (signficantly?) of where KAT was as a defender at a similar age. It seems the Wolves see Naz as part of the next 5 years with Ant and Jaden. It's intriguing that Leonard Miller is such a good rebounder. If Miller can add strength, he could function as a smalller center while complementing Naz on the glass. If Miller develops, the Wolves could play a 5 out face paced style that could really help Ant on offense. The D would be the question as Miller isn't a rim protector. |
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 1, 2024 10:14:53 GMT -6
you're missing the fact that he was awesome last playoffs. He played a great all around game for 2 series. The Dallas series counts too though. His struggles vs. Dallas were a big reason why they lost that one. That's my point. The ceiling where he provides consistent offensive contribution (what he's paid for) that carries all the way through has still never happened. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:23:59 GMT -6
But do we think Finch was good in the Mav's series? Ant, Jaden, Conley or Naz?
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:33:21 GMT -6
Randle going to be happy building his value up as corner three spacer, and back up center?
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Post by levine on Oct 1, 2024 10:34:43 GMT -6
But do we think Finch was good in the Mav's series? Ant, Jaden, Conley or Naz? As much as you may want it to be, its not Finch's fault that KAT shot 38/24 against Dallas and had no chance defending Lively or Gafford. |
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Post by levine on Oct 1, 2024 10:35:37 GMT -6
Top 10 players on NBA trade block? Brandon Ingram, Zach LaVine among those who could be dealt this season2. Julius RandleRandle has already been traded once this offseason. That doesn't mean he's safe from another deal in February. Remember, Minnesota has Naz Reid in place and knows he's capable of starting. If this fit doesn't work, Minnesota can flip Randle's salary slot into a different sort of player in February. It might even be motivated to do so, given Randle's player option this offseason. The Timberwolves could go in any direction here. There are valid arguments for keeping Randle and extending him, letting him walk for tax savings, or trading him for different types of players. Until we see him play in a Timberwolves uniform, we just don't know what will make sense. Here's what we do know: Randle brings needed secondary creation, but as an inferior shooter to Towns, is going to cramp Minnesota's spacing. Donte DiVincenzo might be enough to offset those losses. He might not. But there are too many possible outcomes here to assume Randle is destined to remain in Minnesota. www.cbssports.com/nba/news/top-10-players-on-nba-trade-block-brandon-ingram-zach-lavine-among-those-who-could-be-dealt-this-season/
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Post by levine on Oct 1, 2024 10:36:43 GMT -6
Randle going to be happy building his value up as corner three spacer, and back up center? His ideal role is running with the 2nd team. His creation for others would be much more needed and he'd have the greenlight to look for his own. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:41:04 GMT -6
Top 10 players on NBA trade block? Brandon Ingram, Zach LaVine among those who could be dealt this season2. Julius RandleRandle has already been traded once this offseason. That doesn't mean he's safe from another deal in February. Remember, Minnesota has Naz Reid in place and knows he's capable of starting. If this fit doesn't work, Minnesota can flip Randle's salary slot into a different sort of player in February. It might even be motivated to do so, given Randle's player option this offseason. The Timberwolves could go in any direction here. There are valid arguments for keeping Randle and extending him, letting him walk for tax savings, or trading him for different types of players. Until we see him play in a Timberwolves uniform, we just don't know what will make sense. Here's what we do know: Randle brings needed secondary creation, but as an inferior shooter to Towns, is going to cramp Minnesota's spacing. Donte DiVincenzo might be enough to offset those losses. He might not. But there are too many possible outcomes here to assume Randle is destined to remain in Minnesota. www.cbssports.com/nba/news/top-10-players-on-nba-trade-block-brandon-ingram-zach-lavine-among-those-who-could-be-dealt-this-season/ They are absolutely moving Randle this season or next, I believe Lauri cannot be trade for a year. This was Kat for Donte and Reid, the Detroit pick is nothing. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:42:47 GMT -6
As much as you may want it to be, its not Finch's fault that KAT shot 38/24 against Dallas and had no chance defending Lively or Gafford. What about the rest of the team? Kyle played well. Jaden couldn't do shit. |
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Post by tmill720 on Oct 1, 2024 10:44:12 GMT -6
Randle going to be happy building his value up as corner three spacer, and back up center? Why do we think that's going to be his role? You've pointed out that KAT is much more than just a points guy, in that we are going to miss his ability to create offense for himself AND others. We need an offensive fulcrum while Ant rests. Randle is certainly capable of carrying that mantle for 15 minutes per night, and then also giving Ant possessions off while they share the floor. Randle is a good rebounder and there is a huge void there with KAT gone. I can certainly see a path for him to average 18, 10, and 5 on a winning team and totally rebuilds his reputation. Randle and Naz seem like a great fit together - Naz can't necessarily create his own offense as the primary focal point, he's much better attacking closeouts and rolling/popping after setting a pick. Randle will have plenty of space to bully ball smaller players or torch bigger, slower guys while Naz spaces for him. Randle/Gobert might be a little clunky, just in different ways than a similar amount of clunkiness that KAT/Gobert had. |
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Post by tmill720 on Oct 1, 2024 10:44:48 GMT -6
As much as you may want it to be, its not Finch's fault that KAT shot 38/24 against Dallas and had no chance defending Lively or Gafford. What about the rest of the team? Kyle played well. Jaden couldn't do shit. Let's blame our 5th and 9th guys, not our 1B? |
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Post by kingsxman on Oct 1, 2024 10:45:52 GMT -6
Randle going to be happy building his value up as corner three spacer, and back up center? His ideal role is running with the 2nd team. His creation for others would be much more needed and he'd have the greenlight to look for his own. I dont think Randle will be on the 2nd team. #1 I dont think he would accept it. #2. I dont think the Wolves want to diminish his trade value by putting him on the 2nd team. They will want people to think of him as a starter....not 6th man. I just couldnt disagree more with those who are completely against this trade. (Darko!) The ONLY thing I dont like about this trade is that I dont think we went about seeing what all was out there. I think we dealt with NY and ....maybe..one other team. Had Towns been shopped we certainly would have heard about it. But the biggest thing about this trade is the versatility it gives us with future moves and the fact that we do not have Towns contract like a knife to our throat anymore. We were at an INCREDIBLE risk with that contract. If Towns gets injured again, we are in John Wall territory. Something like that, with the restrictions of the 2nd apron, has the possiblity of stifling any moves we could make. Then we run the risk of having Ant want out. Dane went over it in his last pod. No, I think this move was made with other moves in mind. What you see now is not the end result. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:55:08 GMT -6
Randle is trying to earn starting level contract, and if he doesn't he's could just as easily opt in. We'd have to find other ways to get under the apron in year two, I would guess we do that anyway given we are out of contention.
I just don't get not starting out, seeing how the season goes, we didn't have to move anything until the trade deadline when we should have traded Naz.
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 10:59:37 GMT -6
You've pointed out that KAT is much more than just a points guy, in that we are going to miss his ability to create offense for himself AND others. We need an offensive fulcrum while Ant rests. We needed a guard to initiate versus Kat, and more set actions at the start of the possession using Kat and Rudy as screeners. We have two bigs, and we didn't even use them to free up Ant or Kyle. We have done it with Ant before, and it's typically successful, think to the success Wolves had a season ago getting Ant downhill on Denver. We may not have won given we were not 100%, but it's like we didn't even care if we did. Totally mailed it in. Kat in the post as a center in the second unit is greater than Randle, and we didn't do it enough. Randle also was at least more of a hold, and go to work kind of big. Maybe he no longer is. |
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Post by cory on Oct 1, 2024 11:16:53 GMT -6
Randle is trying to earn starting level contract, and if he doesn't he's could just as easily opt in. We'd have to find other ways to get under the apron in year two, I would guess we do that anyway given we are out of contention. I just don't get not starting out, seeing how the season goes, we didn't have to move anything until the trade deadline when we should have traded Naz.This deal actually doesn't exist once the season starts. The reason it hasn't been announced is because the Knicks have to jump through multiple hoops requiring them to sign and trade players who are already on contract in Europe while also sending pick compensation to Charlotte. The Knicks are hard-capped and can't go into the apron, a deal would be blocked. What makes the deal possible is because a roster can have 19 players on it at the moment. Once the season starts, it's 15 and you can't execute deals the same way. The Knicks needed to do this now or they would be forced to make a move for a lesser center at the deadline. For them, this deal and this package was now or never. People can have their opinions about if this was fair value for KAT if you chose to say we are going to wait and see if offers tick up during the season but given his contract numbers and injury history, there's a strong chance this is a high-water mark trade in terms of talent return overall. And if Donte plays at the same level as he did last year and Julius is giving you 60-70 games, I think it's an overall talent uptick for the roster. And if you are serious about winning a title, as most people here believe aside from Darko, you want to give the roster every opportunity to gel together and have a full camp working out how things fit. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 11:18:18 GMT -6
Gurrrrrrrrrl!
Fair enough, we'll see.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 1, 2024 11:20:29 GMT -6
People can have their opinions about if this was fair value for KAT but given his contract numbers and injury history, there's a strong chance this is a high water mark trade in terms of talent return overall. And if Donte plays at the same level as he did last year and Julius is giving you 60-70 games, I think it's an overall talent uptick for the roster. From what I gather, this is exactly what those who cover the whole league are saying. I'm not sure the pro KAT crowd is giving enough weight to KAT's contract. |
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Post by jojo on Oct 1, 2024 11:22:18 GMT -6
I’d expect Randle to start but Reid to come in early and their minutes end up pretty close. Would love to see Randle play a lot against second units and favorable matchups. Should be easier for Finch than juggling 3 centers!
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 1, 2024 11:22:34 GMT -6
What about the rest of the team? Kyle played well. Jaden couldn't do shit. Let's blame our 5th and 9th guys, not our 1B? Exactly. KAT is a supermax guy. He's supposed to elevate the team in big spots. Of course others struggled, but KAT has a supermax contract because of how great he is offensively. He wasn't that in that series. |
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 11:22:39 GMT -6
There's also a chance this is an opportunity lost in the Ant title belt, but now we can dream about the multiverse of team building options again.
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Post by darko on Oct 1, 2024 11:23:34 GMT -6
He wasn't that in that series. If Naz is hurt next playoff run do we think he is elevating us to the WCF? The main reason we were out of sorts was Ant was not right. |
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Post by cory on Oct 1, 2024 11:25:26 GMT -6
People can have their opinions about if this was fair value for KAT but given his contract numbers and injury history, there's a strong chance this is a high water mark trade in terms of talent return overall. And if Donte plays at the same level as he did last year and Julius is giving you 60-70 games, I think it's an overall talent uptick for the roster. From what I gather, this is exactly what those who cover the whole league are saying. I'm not sure the pro KAT crowd is giving enough weight to KAT's contract. Yep. And this is maybe the only team right now where we were negotiating a trade from a point of strength given the Mitchell Robinson situation and the Knicks aspirations to win a title. Every other team in the league we would be looked at as trying to offload a bad contract where KAT is probably neutral to negative value. I really don't think we would get anything close to a return for KAT from any other team as we did from the Knicks. |
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Post by cory on Oct 1, 2024 11:26:06 GMT -6
There's also a chance this is an opportunity lost in the Ant title belt, but now we can dream about the multiverse of team building options again. Vegas would say there's a better chance he secures a title belt because of the deal chief. |
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