Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 12:16:08 GMT -6
Having an offense is going to be so fun, structure, spacing makes things easier for not just Ant, Kat, or Rudy, but it makes reads easier, for guys like Jaden to cut, or rotate. I really think we’re going to look at this offense now and go wtf were we doing for four years?
And I think we have some depth, so even if we lost Kat or Gob for a stretch, it still works.
Now Twins just need to win a playoff game. Wolves bout to be the most popular team in the cities.
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 3, 2023 6:43:52 GMT -6
He was kind of joking about the tournament, but on his podcast Zach Lowe picked the Wolves to win the inaugural in season tournament this year. He said Wolves are a team that many forget about after listing the top 8-9 teams in the West, but said they are going to be good this year.
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 3, 2023 8:03:34 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 3, 2023 8:13:18 GMT -6
With the new CBA, I had heard that things like the salary floor were going to be calculated at the start of the season. This eliminates teams from operating as dumping grounds where they don't sign players and then are able to take on salary throughout the year in trades to get to the floor by the end of the season.
My question...are the 2nd apron issues the Wolves are facing calculated the same way? If we resign Jaden, the Wolves are going to blow past the 2nd apron next year assuming we sign some kind of PG and depth. If the 2nd apron is calculated at the start of the year, it's going to be hard to get under it even by trading one of KAT or Rudy as matching salary would still be coming back in a trade. Or does the 2nd apron implications come into play at the end of the year. I.E. could the Wolves deal Rudy next summer for contracts that expire at the end of the 24-25 season and not be a 2nd apron team? Unfortunately, I think it's the first and the Wolves are going to be in a tough financial spot next year.
Wolves really need good seasons from KAT and Rudy to either justify keeping them together or to make 1 of them tradable. If it doesn't work this year, it could be really hard to move either given how much they're owed and our lack of draft picks to trade.
|
|
|
Post by cory on Oct 3, 2023 8:30:37 GMT -6
I believe Jon K wrote an article about the standoff or maybe it was Canis recently. It seems like Jaden is pretty content to play out the season if he doesn't get what they think is fair value. I bet he doesn't sign for less than $30M per year at this point and I could see him and his team asking for the max or they'll ride it out. There's enough teams with room next year where I think it's likely he gets a max offer so why not if you're him?
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 3, 2023 8:49:26 GMT -6
I believe Jon K wrote an article about the standoff or maybe it was Canis recently. It seems like Jaden is pretty content to play out the season if he doesn't get what they think is fair value. I bet he doesn't sign for less than $30M per year at this point and I could see him and his team asking for the max or they'll ride it out. There's enough teams with room next year where I think it's likely he gets a max offer so why not if you're him? I love Jaden. I'm just not sure how an honest look at his game makes him worth way more than a guy like Vassell. Jaden is the better defender hands down, but it's not perfect as his fouling limits him there, sometimes severely. If he can't defend at that level without fouling so much and having to sit, that's not a bankable skill for crunch time. And while Jaden can make the case that he hasn't gotten a chance to show everything he can do offensively, he still hasn't done it. He shot well from 3 last year, but on average volume. Vassell has proven way more as a creator on offense and shoots it essentially the same from 3 on double the volume. 4/$150M for Jaden next summer from another team seems crazy right now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 10:48:41 GMT -6
I agree. Makes sense for both sides to give it the season. For me personally it's fine if Jaden is what he is, and might save a little moola if he's not that stud or at least secondary initiator. He could show early that yes, it does look like he's got the chops, they get a deal done, I'm sure he'll have games where he gets opportunities to take on more of the O, but got to see it first.
If Kat, Rudy, Ant are awesome perhaps we stick with that trio. If McD shows the offensive chops to takever on both ends (something he did not do a season ago), than we maybe Kat or Rudy are moved. It is most likely Kat, but again part of the Rudy trade is we have that flexibility. It's sort of the idea of any contending core four or big three as we see with the Bucks and numerous KD teams.
Would SA prefer paying McD a max versus Vassell, and Sochan on current deals? Probably not.
Finch compared Jaden to Pip, and Nick mentioned Kirlenko, but both those guys were fantastic playmakers. Pip was one of those guys that played point, and then had a massive growth spurt. Maybe Jaden can develop that, but he has yet to show that level of handle/playmaking.
And he'll get his ceiling whatever that looks like pending his development on O. Connelly didn't blink paying Porter, who at the time was looking like he might not stay healthy. Obviously team has more intel in that regard, but to NBA fans that didn't have specific medical info/odds he could reliably stay on the court, it looked like a risky bet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 10:59:15 GMT -6
Finch would sell his grandmother for shooting so, if McD continues to trend the right way there, hard to imagine Wolves ever splitting up he and Ant max or not.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Oct 3, 2023 11:15:20 GMT -6
I believe Jon K wrote an article about the standoff or maybe it was Canis recently. It seems like Jaden is pretty content to play out the season if he doesn't get what they think is fair value. I bet he doesn't sign for less than $30M per year at this point and I could see him and his team asking for the max or they'll ride it out. There's enough teams with room next year where I think it's likely he gets a max offer so why not if you're him? I love Jaden. I'm just not sure how an honest look at his game makes him worth way more than a guy like Vassell. Jaden is the better defender hands down, but it's not perfect as his fouling limits him there, sometimes severely. If he can't defend at that level without fouling so much and having to sit, that's not a bankable skill for crunch time. And while Jaden can make the case that he hasn't gotten a chance to show everything he can do offensively, he still hasn't done it. He shot well from 3 last year, but on average volume. Vassell has proven way more as a creator on offense and shoots it essentially the same from 3 on double the volume. 4/$150M for Jaden next summer from another team seems crazy right now. Would something like 5/160 be reasonable for Jaden at this point? I think he's absolutely worth it and still has ways he can get better. He's the perfect compliment to Ant, KAT, and Rudy and I believe could shine in a higher usage role if that opportunity presented itself. Speaking of, I would hope that the usg rates for the team would be 1) Ant 2) KAT 3) Jaden. I'd like it if they unleashed him a little bit more to try to get to the mid-range and do a little bit of playmaking.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 11:31:23 GMT -6
Jaden in the middy should have been an option as a zone breaker last year, especially missing Towns, but I get Finch liked Slo Mo's decision making there. For me it's just like there's not that many decisions happening in that role though, so I'm not sure why we didn't try it.
Jaden will get opportunities on ball. Maybe if Kat's that first sub out to come back in for Rudy we can get him some reps there, otherwise he's kind of more competing with Slo Mo right now I'd say.
Conley, Ant, Kat are the trio in group one to start out anyway.
|
|
|
Post by vlad on Oct 3, 2023 11:35:19 GMT -6
I believe Jon K wrote an article about the standoff or maybe it was Canis recently. It seems like Jaden is pretty content to play out the season if he doesn't get what they think is fair value. I bet he doesn't sign for less than $30M per year at this point and I could see him and his team asking for the max or they'll ride it out. There's enough teams with room next year where I think it's likely he gets a max offer so why not if you're him? I love Jaden. I'm just not sure how an honest look at his game makes him worth way more than a guy like Vassell. Jaden is the better defender hands down, but it's not perfect as his fouling limits him there, sometimes severely. If he can't defend at that level without fouling so much and having to sit, that's not a bankable skill for crunch time. And while Jaden can make the case that he hasn't gotten a chance to show everything he can do offensively, he still hasn't done it. He shot well from 3 last year, but on average volume. Vassell has proven way more as a creator on offense and shoots it essentially the same from 3 on double the volume. 4/$150M for Jaden next summer from another team seems crazy right now. What I don't understand is that if an established star like Edwards gets max, how a good young guy with potential could be even close to it? Is he closer to Naz or Ant, that's the question!
|
|
|
Post by kingsxman on Oct 3, 2023 14:17:40 GMT -6
I love Jaden. I'm just not sure how an honest look at his game makes him worth way more than a guy like Vassell. Jaden is the better defender hands down, but it's not perfect as his fouling limits him there, sometimes severely. If he can't defend at that level without fouling so much and having to sit, that's not a bankable skill for crunch time. And while Jaden can make the case that he hasn't gotten a chance to show everything he can do offensively, he still hasn't done it. He shot well from 3 last year, but on average volume. Vassell has proven way more as a creator on offense and shoots it essentially the same from 3 on double the volume. 4/$150M for Jaden next summer from another team seems crazy right now. What I don't understand is that if an established star like Edwards gets max, how a good young guy with potential could be even close to it? Is he closer to Naz or Ant, that's the question! Vlad, you are exactly right. The problem is that the NBA pays on potential as well as it pays for proven production. Which...really in the end hurts the vets and the vast majority of people in the middle. But...if they wanted it to change they could make it change.
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 4, 2023 4:27:51 GMT -6
What I don't understand is that if an established star like Edwards gets max, how a good young guy with potential could be even close to it? Is he closer to Naz or Ant, that's the question! There's a lot that goes into valuation, but one specific thing to your point is that "the max" puts a limit on salaries. Ant probably could get even more than the max in a system without that rule. Ant and LaMelo aren't worth exactly the same, but they got the same contract because it's the most that either could get. Since the upper limit is arbitrary, one can't also then make that the absolute baromter of what others should get. Just for example, let's say that Ant could have signed for $300M over 5 years if there wasn't a max. If Jaden is half the player that Ant is (for discussion), Jaden getting $150M for 5 years is actually the correct salary.
|
|
|
Post by stretcharmstrong on Oct 4, 2023 6:32:26 GMT -6
Having an offense is going to be so fun, structure, spacing makes things easier for not just Ant, Kat, or Rudy, but it makes reads easier, for guys like Jaden to cut, or rotate. I really think we’re going to look at this offense now and go wtf were we doing for four years? And I think we have some depth, so even if we lost Kat or Gob for a stretch, it still works. Now Twins just need to win a playoff game. Wolves bout to be the most popular team in the cities. The Twins won a game due to Lewis. I don't think I have seen a more clutch hitter like him in a Twins uniform. He is up there with Puckett, but he is in his rookie season. As for Wolves, they still need to defend well. They still need to see if Rudy and KAT can dominate the paint and defense or not. They need to transition to making the team focused on Edwards and making it his team.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 6:48:41 GMT -6
I had to miss the game, but kind of followed online as best I could.
Puckett is among the reasons I fell in love with sports when I was a kid. All-time fun player. Awesome to have Lewis now too, if Buxton could have stayed healthy I think he’s up there too. Saw him get a triple when I was at Target field somewhat early in his career and that dude could fly!
|
|
|
Post by kingsxman on Oct 4, 2023 10:40:14 GMT -6
What I don't understand is that if an established star like Edwards gets max, how a good young guy with potential could be even close to it? Is he closer to Naz or Ant, that's the question! There's a lot that goes into valuation, but one specific thing to your point is that "the max" puts a limit on salaries. Ant probably could get even more than the max in a system without that rule. Ant and LaMelo aren't worth exactly the same, but they got the same contract because it's the most that either could get. Since the upper limit is arbitrary, one can't also then make that the absolute baromter of what others should get. Just for example, let's say that Ant could have signed for $300M over 5 years if there wasn't a max. If Jaden is half the player that Ant is (for discussion), Jaden getting $150M for 5 years is actually the correct salary. I think these limits are super important to the sport. (Any sport for that matter). The competition for players is so great that players will always be vastly overpaid if there was no limit. ESPECIALLY in the NBA...where one play can make such a difference. Using Ant and Lamelo as an example. Lets say there were no limits and Ant happened to sign first. Lets say Ant signed for 300 Million. Lamelo, even though he's about 75% the player Ant is (at best) would still use that 300 million that Ant signed for as his starting point for his negotiations and then would use that as leverage against his team. In the end you'd have skyrocketing costs because players, agents and owners really have no ability or desire to put any realistic limits on what they "should" get paid in relation to others. The best players are always going to be underpaid based on the value that they provide to thier team.
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 4, 2023 11:11:43 GMT -6
I think these limits are super important to the sport. (Any sport for that matter). Limits are important, but it doesn't have to max salaries. There are different ways to do it. The NFL doesn't have a max salary, but they have a hard cap. The NBA could do the same. It would probably generate more parity and would definitely break up teams way more than the current soft cap system with max player salaries. So yes, I agree that there needs to be some kind of limit, but I would disagree that it has to be max player salaries. That said, I like the NBA as is. I don't think an NFL style system would work near as well in basketball. Just my opinion though.
|
|
|
Post by kingsxman on Oct 4, 2023 13:21:09 GMT -6
I think these limits are super important to the sport. (Any sport for that matter). Limits are important, but it doesn't have to max salaries. There are different ways to do it. The NFL doesn't have a max salary, but they have a hard cap. The NBA could do the same. It would probably generate more parity and would definitely break up teams way more than the current soft cap system with max player salaries. So yes, I agree that there needs to be some kind of limit, but I would disagree that it has to be max player salaries. That said, I like the NBA as is. I don't think an NFL style system would work near as well in basketball. Just my opinion though. 100% agree. Can you imagine if basketball had a hard cap...but no salary limits? You'd have a team with 2 stars...and literally no one else as unless a player is someone who's already earned generational wealth like LeBron....they arent taking less. Speaking of caps....Go Twins. I love the Twins and will always root for them but I wont get invested in major league baseball until they get a salary cap of some sort. Sure each year there are a few teams who get in and make some noise. And maybe even win it.. but generally,your big market, big spending teams are the ones that have bought the depth to fight through injuries.
|
|
|
Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 4, 2023 18:20:03 GMT -6
FWIW, on the Hollinger and Duncan pod, Nate asked Hollinger if McDaniels gets more or less than Vassell and Hollinger's first thought was less. Nate predicted the deal won't get done before the season given Wolves upcoming salary crunch and that they can't afford to make a mistake.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 22:11:31 GMT -6
All about dat O.
Wiggins got paid because he averaged 18 at a time when scoring 18 meant you were a premier offensive weapon.
Bridges did not get paid because his role was so limited in Suns. Both he and Ayton would have been better of with Rube’s, and I would argue that team, paying Bridges, Book and Ayton, and keeping that trio together.
Porter Jr got paid because he could score, despite some real health risks.
If Wiggins were same age, hitting his rookie extension same time as McD is now, he’s still getting a max IMO. If Jaden can do it nows the time to show it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 22:24:27 GMT -6
We wouldn’t have kept Ant, Kat, Gob, Naz, and McD after this season pre CBA either. If McD was a surefire max maybe they move Towns already, but that would be assuming he’s picking up some of that offensive load, which he has yet to demonstrate.
Vando/Naz extensions also interesting to look at in terms of what gets paid. It’s possible McD could do the Jerami Grant thing where he goes to another team, to be more of a focal point on offense to get paid, but he’ll have games this season to do it. He disappeared in some of those bad losses as much as anyone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 5:13:45 GMT -6
Thought about Around the NBA, but also could be shared with the Kat Man.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 8:34:59 GMT -6
Where will Dame set up? Where did D-Lo set up during his great stretch?
Isn't the traditional spacing for Kat weakside above the break maybe floating to the midrange there. Him just shooting it every time from either spot should be the starting point. That was kind of the idea back when shooters really were more or less just one spacer.
For all the running around Steph does, the main thing he is doing is stretching the floor, he does it as a movement shooter, so it looks different than Dame, who would be more on ball, but it's the same idea. They're not going to park Steph in the corner to stretch, because the need is to keep that guy up top. And what Dame is saying is basically that. I don't need to have the ball every trip down, I'm a sniper. Get Kat some call of duty war paint, and let him snipe from as far out as he's comfortable, although with his height he can more comfortably right from the three point line.
That pre-season game on tv outside of league pass or NBA TV?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 9:02:12 GMT -6
The difference is in 2010 you had both bigs working the lower trap, teams are often just sticking two in a corner McD/Conley or whoever's not on ball to start the drive and kick.
The last three years was just everyone freelance, which was a problem because everyone's version of that was in conflict with each other. Kat's bumpers, D-Lo's bumpers, and Gobert re-screening are what they all revert back to, and you can't do all four simultaneously.
After that horrible Spurs loss, there were games Wolves started to lean into more of that structure, a Spurs game, Lakers, and Bucks I believe. Those were some of Kat's best games IMO, just making the easy play. It was not his best game statistically, in fact was relatively pedestrian in the today's 2k numbers. I want to say one was like 21 points, 11 boards, few assists or something. For all the talk about usage, it just comes back to making the right play because it's the right play. Normal team work offense that aides each other, oppose to junking things up to do your thing.
Kat has done this before. He didn't float around wherever he wanted with Sam or Thibs. It is how all basketball used to work. I think those second groups should smash if healthy, but if we really want to do the OKC flow thing, which is basically just drive and kick we know what that requires. Two stud initiators. If we want to flip Kat for Giddey, Dort, and Chet we could do that, and Chet's probably taking that Kat role at least in the Gobert window.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 9:22:32 GMT -6
* The difference is in 2010 you had both bigs working the lower trap
And this still works, you just wouldn't have four guys standing around taking turns driving. It was more about moving, getting the defense to turn their head to the ball, which is where you'd open up those great in traffic passing lanes that don't exist anymore, and having a point guard mattered. Because everyone and their mom can now get to the rim off the dribble basically, that was what caused teams to go, what if we just play all guards?
|
|