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COY
Dec 6, 2018 8:05:55 GMT -6
Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Dec 6, 2018 8:05:55 GMT -6
Assuming the pups continue their stretch of good play and make the playoffs this year, will Thibs get any consideration for COY? After all, the way national media will be looking at it is a GM who made the best out of a bad situation with JB by patiently waiting fro the best possible outcome, a coach who seamlessly integrated two major pieces in the regular rotation in the middle of the season, changed the style of play to better fit the roster, and had good results all year doing it. As far as the outside world is concerned, the JB situation had nothing to do with Thibs, he just had to deal with the fallout...
Things Thibs got going for him (in my book) - Drafting JOko. Kid has game! - Reviving Rose's corpse into a productive player. Nobody can say they saw that coming... - Keeping his cool under pressure and getting what looks to be the best outcome from the JB fiasco - Understanding what the roster needed and pouncing when the trade opportunity presented itself. - Allowing the team to play to its strengths after the trade - Feeding the KAT - If he manages to turn Wiggs into a player worth most of the money he makes, he will be worth keeping for the duration of his contract
We all know what he has going against him...
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 8:55:27 GMT -6
Post by vlad on Dec 6, 2018 8:55:27 GMT -6
Many of the positive things you listed have to do with GM, nit caching duties. And allowing Butler situation go into the season is his fault. He did get a decent return on the value, though. However, I have a lot of issues with Thibs the coach. And one of them is not playing the great rookie, which Thibs GM has drafted. Another, starting Gibson with KAT. It hurts KAT skills. And there are many more to it. However, if they maintain the same pace like they got after the trade, Thibs would get consideration for COY regardless.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 10:14:08 GMT -6
Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Dec 6, 2018 10:14:08 GMT -6
Many of the positive things you listed have to do with GM, nit caching duties. And allowing Butler situation go into the season is his fault. He did get a decent return on the value, though. However, I have a lot of issues with Thibs the coach. And one of them is not playing the great rookie, which Thibs GM has drafted. Another, starting Gibson with KAT. It hurts KAT skills. And there are many more to it. However, if they maintain the same pace like they got after the trade, Thibs would get consideration for COY regardless. One thing to understand about Thibs: he does not act on small sample lot data. He takes his time, analyses the crap out of situation and then he makes a decision. Sometime the world passes him by while he is in his data gathering phase, but you cannot really argue with the results. My hopes for the near future: When he has enough data, he will replace Taj with Dario in the starting lineup. When (not if) Rose goes down, JOko will step in. If something comes along I think he will be open to replacing Teague.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 10:40:52 GMT -6
Post by levine on Dec 6, 2018 10:40:52 GMT -6
Assuming the pups continue their stretch of good play and make the playoffs this year, will Thibs get any consideration for COY? After all, the way national media will be looking at it is a GM who made the best out of a bad situation with JB by patiently waiting fro the best possible outcome, a coach who seamlessly integrated two major pieces in the regular rotation in the middle of the season, changed the style of play to better fit the roster, and had good results all year doing it. As far as the outside world is concerned, the JB situation had nothing to do with Thibs, he just had to deal with the fallout... Things Thibs got going for him (in my book) - Drafting JOko. Kid has game! - Reviving Rose's corpse into a productive player. Nobody can say they saw that coming... - Keeping his cool under pressure and getting what looks to be the best outcome from the JB fiasco - Understanding what the roster needed and pouncing when the trade opportunity presented itself.- Allowing the team to play to its strengths after the trade - Feeding the KAT - If he manages to turn Wiggs into a player worth most of the money he makes, he will be worth keeping for the duration of his contract We all know what he has going against him... So Taylor should be under consideration for COY?
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 10:52:38 GMT -6
Post by Bonecrusher on Dec 6, 2018 10:52:38 GMT -6
Not a chance. Thibs lucked into Okogie because he was best player available. Now if we had the 9th pick and selected Okogie and he turned into a stud then possibly. As for the Butler trade he had nothing to do with it. From all reports that was Taylor and the Philly owner working that out. Since the trade all of our stats that should be improving have and that isn't coaching except maybe by Covington.
Thibs would be towards the end of the spectrum for me.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:00:10 GMT -6
Post by Nick K on Dec 6, 2018 12:00:10 GMT -6
COY?? No way. The team is succeeding despite Thibs.
Look at the Athletic article where the players down 18 at the half, huddled together and worked it out before Thibs and staff came out of their office to bark at the players. The players knew what they had to do.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:13:17 GMT -6
Post by levine on Dec 6, 2018 12:13:17 GMT -6
COY?? No way. The team is succeeding despite Thibs. Look at the Athletic article where the players down 18 at the half, huddled together and worked it out before Thibs and staff came out of their office to bark at the players. The players knew what they had to do. The coaches convened in an adjacent meeting room to talk things over, synthesize their message and present the necessary adjustments to the players. While they were doing that, a charged-up locker room was one step ahead of them.
"We screamed at each other about how we wanted to fix our mistakes on defense and how we were as a group going to do it before Thibs talked to us," Karl-Anthony Towns said. "And we went out there and did it."
On a team cloaked in drama for two months, something felt different about the conversations on that night, Gibson said.
"Guys have been speaking their minds. But guys are speaking their minds in a positive way," he said. "They’re not speaking their minds in a negative fashion at all. Everybody wants to do something positive. Everybody’s still learning but we’re growing as a team. There’s nothing out of the ordinary negativity-wise. It’s always positive, always preaching good things."
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:15:41 GMT -6
Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Dec 6, 2018 12:15:41 GMT -6
Im hard pressed to attribute wins to any aspect of thibs coaching. what coaching has he done that has led to anything positive?
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:27:24 GMT -6
Post by The Country Club on Dec 6, 2018 12:27:24 GMT -6
Budenholzer is hands down coach of the year if MIL keeps playing the way they are. I'd also give Doc credit for how LAC is doing.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:32:05 GMT -6
Post by vlad on Dec 6, 2018 12:32:05 GMT -6
Not a chance. Thibs lucked into Okogie because he was best player available. Now if we had the 9th pick and selected Okogie and he turned into a stud then possibly.As for the Butler trade he had nothing to do with it. From all reports that was Taylor and the Philly owner working that out. Since the trade all of our stats that should be improving have and that isn't coaching except maybe by Covington. Thibs would be towards the end of the spectrum for me. I think that if a GM takes the best player available to him at each position, then the GM is doing the perfect job. It applies even to a 1st pick and definitely to the picks in 20ies
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:35:55 GMT -6
Post by Nick K on Dec 6, 2018 12:35:55 GMT -6
COY?? No way. The team is succeeding despite Thibs. Look at the Athletic article where the players down 18 at the half, huddled together and worked it out before Thibs and staff came out of their office to bark at the players. The players knew what they had to do. The coaches convened in an adjacent meeting room to talk things over, synthesize their message and present the necessary adjustments to the players. While they were doing that, a charged-up locker room was one step ahead of them.
"We screamed at each other about how we wanted to fix our mistakes on defense and how we were as a group going to do it before Thibs talked to us," Karl-Anthony Towns said. "And we went out there and did it."
On a team cloaked in drama for two months, something felt different about the conversations on that night, Gibson said.
"Guys have been speaking their minds. But guys are speaking their minds in a positive way," he said. "They’re not speaking their minds in a negative fashion at all. Everybody wants to do something positive. Everybody’s still learning but we’re growing as a team. There’s nothing out of the ordinary negativity-wise. It’s always positive, always preaching good things."Yep, that's it. When I read that it came across as so damning to Thibs.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:46:50 GMT -6
Post by Nick K on Dec 6, 2018 12:46:50 GMT -6
Budenholzer is hands down coach of the year if MIL keeps playing the way they are. I'd also give Doc credit for how LAC is doing. So far it's clearly those two. I'm amazed at the Clippers. No superstars but great team play. Tobias Harris has been teriffic.
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COY
Dec 6, 2018 12:56:43 GMT -6
Post by Scorched on Dec 6, 2018 12:56:43 GMT -6
The thing to remember is, we know Thibs has little to nothing to do with the turn around, but that doesn't mean that the people who vote on this sort of thing do.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 12:36:46 GMT -6
Post by kingsxman on Dec 7, 2018 12:36:46 GMT -6
Many of the positive things you listed have to do with GM, nit caching duties. And allowing Butler situation go into the season is his fault. He did get a decent return on the value, though. However, I have a lot of issues with Thibs the coach. And one of them is not playing the great rookie, which Thibs GM has drafted. Another, starting Gibson with KAT. It hurts KAT skills. And there are many more to it. However, if they maintain the same pace like they got after the trade, Thibs would get consideration for COY regardless. One thing to understand about Thibs: he does not act on small sample lot data. He takes his time, analyses the crap out of situation and then he makes a decision. Sometime the world passes him by while he is in his data gathering phase, but you cannot really argue with the results.
My hopes for the near future: When he has enough data, he will replace Taj with Dario in the starting lineup. When (not if) Rose goes down, JOko will step in. If something comes along I think he will be open to replacing Teague. Bull***. I think the results are in spite of Thibs. Does anyone really think that if Butler wouldnt have made an ass out of himself that he wouldnt still be here? Butler knows Thibs better than Thibs knows Thibs. He knew that if he didnt make it miserable for Thibs he would never trade him. But we're getting into GM ing and not coaching. From a coaching standpoint...what has he done? His hand was forced away from Jimmy iso ball so he did what he had to do which was finally run the ball through Towns more. I believe this is more Thibs being lucky than good.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 13:43:12 GMT -6
Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Dec 7, 2018 13:43:12 GMT -6
One thing to understand about Thibs: he does not act on small sample lot data. He takes his time, analyses the crap out of situation and then he makes a decision. Sometime the world passes him by while he is in his data gathering phase, but you cannot really argue with the results.
My hopes for the near future: When he has enough data, he will replace Taj with Dario in the starting lineup. When (not if) Rose goes down, JOko will step in. If something comes along I think he will be open to replacing Teague. Bull***. I think the results are in spite of Thibs. Does anyone really think that if Butler wouldnt have made an ass out of himself that he wouldnt still be here? Butler knows Thibs better than Thibs knows Thibs. He knew that if he didnt make it miserable for Thibs he would never trade him. But we're getting into GM ing and not coaching. From a coaching standpoint...what has he done? His hand was forced away from Jimmy iso ball so he did what he had to do which was finally run the ball through Towns more. I believe this is more Thibs being lucky than good. Well, if you were willing to blame him for everything when things were going badly, you must be willing to give him credit when everything goes well... Otherwise you're just a hater!
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 14:06:12 GMT -6
Post by Nick K on Dec 7, 2018 14:06:12 GMT -6
Bull***. I think the results are in spite of Thibs. Does anyone really think that if Butler wouldnt have made an ass out of himself that he wouldnt still be here? Butler knows Thibs better than Thibs knows Thibs. He knew that if he didnt make it miserable for Thibs he would never trade him. But we're getting into GM ing and not coaching. From a coaching standpoint...what has he done? His hand was forced away from Jimmy iso ball so he did what he had to do which was finally run the ball through Towns more. I believe this is more Thibs being lucky than good. Well, if you were willing to blame him for everything when things were going badly, you must be willing to give him credit when everything goes well... Otherwise you're just a hater!That might make sense to you but it just wrong. The players are doing things mostly their own way. I assure you the players are playing for themselves not Thibs.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 14:20:58 GMT -6
Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Dec 7, 2018 14:20:58 GMT -6
Bull***. I think the results are in spite of Thibs. Does anyone really think that if Butler wouldnt have made an ass out of himself that he wouldnt still be here? Butler knows Thibs better than Thibs knows Thibs. He knew that if he didnt make it miserable for Thibs he would never trade him. But we're getting into GM ing and not coaching. From a coaching standpoint...what has he done? His hand was forced away from Jimmy iso ball so he did what he had to do which was finally run the ball through Towns more. I believe this is more Thibs being lucky than good. Well, if you were willing to blame him for everything when things were going badly, you must be willing to give him credit when everything goes well... Otherwise you're just a hater! total nonsense. its perfectly reasonable to blame him for the bad things he causes, and only give him credit for the good things he causes. in this case, he was a huge part of the bad, and pretty much none of the good.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 14:35:55 GMT -6
Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Dec 7, 2018 14:35:55 GMT -6
Well, if you were willing to blame him for everything when things were going badly, you must be willing to give him credit when everything goes well... Otherwise you're just a hater! total nonsense. its perfectly reasonable to blame him for the bad things he causes, and only give him credit for the good things he causes. in this case, he was a huge part of the bad, and pretty much none of the good. We only know what we get thru the different channels available to us, which is less than complete and/or unbiased at the best. From where we (and people voting for COY) stand, Thibs as a coach/GM is the de-facto CEO of the team. And like any CEO, will take credit when the company (team) does well and get fired when things go sideways. Better lucky than good principle works here for sure...
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 15:00:46 GMT -6
Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Dec 7, 2018 15:00:46 GMT -6
total nonsense. its perfectly reasonable to blame him for the bad things he causes, and only give him credit for the good things he causes. in this case, he was a huge part of the bad, and pretty much none of the good. We only know what we get thru the different channels available to us, which is less than complete and/or unbiased at the best. From where we (and people voting for COY) stand, Thibs as a coach/GM is the de-facto CEO of the team. And like any CEO, will take credit when the company (team) does well and get fired when things go sideways. Better lucky than good principle works here for sure... Im perfectly capable of evaluating the information available and making appropriate conclusions. if you have concluded thibs has done something positive, good for you, I think you are pretty wrong though. so what if thibs takes credit? Doesnt mean I have to give him credit for things that I dont think he is responsible for....thats what you said we had to do, else we are haters...that idea is total nonsense.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 15:03:01 GMT -6
Post by Nick K on Dec 7, 2018 15:03:01 GMT -6
total nonsense. its perfectly reasonable to blame him for the bad things he causes, and only give him credit for the good things he causes. in this case, he was a huge part of the bad, and pretty much none of the good. We only know what we get thru the different channels available to us, which is less than complete and/or unbiased at the best. From where we (and people voting for COY) stand, Thibs as a coach/GM is the de-facto CEO of the team. And like any CEO, will take credit when the company (team) does well and get fired when things go sideways. Better lucky than good principle works here for sure... From all reports not coming from Thibs he wasn't even a part of the trade! How's that for a POBO? It's was the owner Glen Taylor mostly and some from Scott Layden. That came from Taylor himself.
If I we're as big a failure as Thibs I'd steal credit anywhere I could get it.
I don't want to dislike Thibs coaching but he's given us so many reasons to.
Try to find me 10 people in MN that think he's doing a great job that aren't family members. It might take you a long time. :)
I'm sure people that don't follow the team like we do think he's the second coming. That's why we don't listen to them.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 16:17:21 GMT -6
Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Dec 7, 2018 16:17:21 GMT -6
We only know what we get thru the different channels available to us, which is less than complete and/or unbiased at the best. From where we (and people voting for COY) stand, Thibs as a coach/GM is the de-facto CEO of the team. And like any CEO, will take credit when the company (team) does well and get fired when things go sideways. Better lucky than good principle works here for sure... From all reports not coming from Thibs he wasn't even a part of the trade! How's that for a POBO? It's was the owner Glen Taylor mostly and some from Scott Layden. That came from Taylor himself.
If I we're as big a failure as Thibs I'd steal credit anywhere I could get it.
I don't want to dislike Thibs coaching but he's given us so many reasons to.
Try to find me 10 people in MN that think he's doing a great job that aren't family members. It might take you a long time.
I'm sure people that don't follow the team like we do think he's the second coming. That's why we don't listen to them.
Re bolded part: Jim Souhan had an article on this topic in Strib today. Read that and when you are done let me know if you think besides me and him there might be other eight people in the state agreeing with the premise discussed there. I do not care if Taylor was involved in this trade over Thibs' head. Taylor forced Wiggs' signing after the "pinky swear" talk he had with AW, and pretty much everybody on this board is holding that signing against Thibs when Wiggs sucks! Thibs either gets all the credit and blame for stuff happening on his watch, or he gets none. Can't have one without the other and act like that is fair. Anyway, the original post was asking if people voting for COY, who by definition do not follow every team to the brink of obsession like most of us do with this team, will have a point in voting Thibs in the contention. In an era of over-reliance on statistics and management by spreadsheet, Thibs' numbers could be impressive enough to get him quite a few votes...
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 16:23:02 GMT -6
Post by Bonecrusher on Dec 7, 2018 16:23:02 GMT -6
From all reports not coming from Thibs he wasn't even a part of the trade! How's that for a POBO? It's was the owner Glen Taylor mostly and some from Scott Layden. That came from Taylor himself. If I we're as big a failure as Thibs I'd steal credit anywhere I could get it. I don't want to dislike Thibs coaching but he's given us so many reasons to. Try to find me 10 people in MN that think he's doing a great job that aren't family members. It might take you a long time. I'm sure people that don't follow the team like we do think he's the second coming. That's why we don't listen to them.
Re bolded part: Jim Souhan had an article on this topic in Strib today. Read that and when you are done let me know if you think besides me and him there might be other eight people in the state agreeing with the premise discussed there. I do not care if Taylor was involved in this trade over Thibs' head. Taylor forced Wiggs' signing after the "pinky swear" talk he had with AW, and pretty much everybody on this board is holding that signing against Thibs when Wiggs sucks! Thibs either gets all the credit and blame for stuff happening on his watch, or he gets none. Can't have one without the other and act like that is fair. Anyway, the original post was asking if people voting for COY, who by definition do not follow every team to the brink of obsession like most of us do with this team, will have a point in voting Thibs in the contention. In an era of over-reliance on statistics and management by spreadsheet, Thibs' numbers could be impressive enough to get him quite a few votes... Quite a few were upset with Taylor and his "pinky swear" with AW. Doesn't take away that Thibs should have gone to him and said it's a bad move and to match any offers and be done with it.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 17:12:57 GMT -6
Post by araxen on Dec 7, 2018 17:12:57 GMT -6
Re bolded part: Jim Souhan had an article on this topic in Strib today. Read that and when you are done let me know if you think besides me and him there might be other eight people in the state agreeing with the premise discussed there. I do not care if Taylor was involved in this trade over Thibs' head. Taylor forced Wiggs' signing after the "pinky swear" talk he had with AW, and pretty much everybody on this board is holding that signing against Thibs when Wiggs sucks! Thibs either gets all the credit and blame for stuff happening on his watch, or he gets none. Can't have one without the other and act like that is fair. Anyway, the original post was asking if people voting for COY, who by definition do not follow every team to the brink of obsession like most of us do with this team, will have a point in voting Thibs in the contention. In an era of over-reliance on statistics and management by spreadsheet, Thibs' numbers could be impressive enough to get him quite a few votes... Quite a few were upset with Taylor and his "pinky swear" with AW. Doesn't take away that Thibs should have gone to him and said it's a bad move and to match any offers and be done with it. It won't surprise me after the Thibs era is over we find out he did exactly that and Taylor ignored him. I don't care for Thibs, but he did try to trade Andrew and was vetoed by Taylor. Which tells me he doesn't have much faith in Wiggins as part of this team's core.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 17:17:45 GMT -6
Nick K likes this
Post by kingsxman on Dec 7, 2018 17:17:45 GMT -6
Bull***. I think the results are in spite of Thibs. Does anyone really think that if Butler wouldnt have made an ass out of himself that he wouldnt still be here? Butler knows Thibs better than Thibs knows Thibs. He knew that if he didnt make it miserable for Thibs he would never trade him. But we're getting into GM ing and not coaching. From a coaching standpoint...what has he done? His hand was forced away from Jimmy iso ball so he did what he had to do which was finally run the ball through Towns more. I believe this is more Thibs being lucky than good. Well, if you were willing to blame him for everything when things were going badly, you must be willing to give him credit when everything goes well... Otherwise you're just a hater! Here's what I give Thibs credit for: - Bringing in Taj. Sure its an overpay...but he's a solid vet that is looked up to and is making a difference. I wish he didnt start anymore...but it was a good move bringing him in (if there werent other overpays..aka Teague). - Making the original Jimmy Butler deal. I'd do that deal 10 times out of 10. And...I dont really think its Thibs fault that it went sour. To a certain degree... I think it was more Jimmy than Thibs. - I give Thibs credit for drafting Okogie and KBD. (Its been so long since he's seen the light of day I dont even remember if those are the right initials). Okogie is going to be a stud. I'm really shocked he cant find time for him. - I give Thibs credit for bringing in Rose. I was pissed that he did it and its turned out much better than anyone could have imagined. Putting aside the off court stuff, on the court and in the locker room he's been much better than expected. His leadership is much more important than I had anticipated. I wish he played more defense and was a bit less of a ball hog but I think he's bringing somethign to this team that they desperately needed. Thats pretty much it. Everything else is either "in spite" of Thibs or "player growth". And as for player growth...I dont really see any players "blossoming" BECAUSE of Thibs. Towns was going to be a stud no matter who coached him.
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COY
Dec 7, 2018 17:20:37 GMT -6
Post by kingsxman on Dec 7, 2018 17:20:37 GMT -6
Quite a few were upset with Taylor and his "pinky swear" with AW. Doesn't take away that Thibs should have gone to him and said it's a bad move and to match any offers and be done with it. It won't surprise me after the Thibs era is over we find out he did exactly that and Taylor ignored him. I don't care for Thibs, but he did try to trade Andrew and was vetoed by Taylor. Which tells me he doesn't have much faith in Wiggins as part of this team's core. I've heard that too. And if so...add that to Thibs positive. He evaluated the talent potential there and tried to avoid the issue we have today. That being said....there is still a difference between "not trading him" and "signing him a year early to a max extention". If he truly thought that Wiggins was not going to be worth a max, he should have persuaded Glen to at least wait a year and then match offers that came. They werent going to lose him and Glen literally had nothing to lose. Thibs could/should have convinced Glen to do that.
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