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Post by jzwoopwoop on Aug 31, 2018 8:52:19 GMT -6
Ok shamelessly stealing this from the reddit board, but it's such a great question!
If you had to put together a starting 5 from only Wolves players, what would it be?
I think there are two ways to interpret this question, and I'll provide my answers for both interpretations.
1. As long as player stepped on the court in a Wolves jersey, they are eligible to be chosen for this exercise AND you can take the "best version" of that player, even if the best version of said player occurred for a different team.
2. As long as player stepped on the court in a Wolves jersey, they are eligible to be chosen for this exercise BUT you must choose the version of that player that actually played in a Wolves jersey. So, for example, I can't take Pistons champ version of Chauncey.
1. Interpretation v1: This interpretation is really what I think of when posed with that question, which makes it an incredibly difficult decision at PG between Sammy C (my favorite NBA player of all time) and Billups. I'd probably have to go with Chauncey, since he was a better two-way player than Sammy.
KG is the best Wolf of all time, so he has to be played at his best position: PF. Amazingly, that means Love doesn't make the lineup, since I'll take KAT over him. KG would be the (and was, for KAT's rookie year) the PERFECT compliment to KAT at C.
For wings: Jimmy is obvs one of them, so he takes SG, his preferred position (though I've always considered him more of a SF). So for the last spot I'm looking at the following guys, in no particular order:
AK47 Marbury Wally Mike Miller Kevin Martin
Of those options, I'll choose AK47, with K-Mart as a very close runner-up. To recap: PG: Chauncey SG: Jimmy SF: AK47 PF: KG C: KAT
Analysis: This team is absolutely sick at D, though a bit light on outside shooting. But holy crap they would be amazing on D, could switch seamlessly, or excel at man-to-man.
2. Interpretation v2:
PG: Sam Cassel 03/04 SG: Jimmy Buckets 17/18 SF: Kevin Garnett 03/04 PF: Kevin Love: 13/14 C: KAT 17/18
Analysis: It's not a perfect roster by any stretch, and I hate playing the best Wolf of all time out of position. But this crew is talented enough to make it work. This team's offense is, I think, markedly better than the offense from the first roster, thanks to K-Love replacing Kirilenko. But the D is significantly worse for the same reason, and also because Sammy is a worse defender than Chauncey. And this team would probably have a hard time in the current NBA, since they would have MANY struggles in a switching system - K-Love and Sam would be hunted out by teams like the Warriors and Rockets. Still, they're talented enough to make it work.
Lastly, in the reddit thread, a lot of people were adding bench players. I think that's kinda cheating. The whole point of this exercise is to limit yourself! Yeah, I love Googs, Rubio and Hoiberg too - but they're just not as talented as the 7 players mentioned in my two starting lineups. That said, if you want to take that "out" this is just a silly exercise, so do you :)
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Post by jzwoopwoop on Aug 31, 2018 9:00:35 GMT -6
Also as a quick aside, in the Chauncey vs Sam Cassel debate (a debate which perhaps exists only in my head, but one I'm still fascinated by):
When looking at their advanced stats on basketball reference, it's obvious that Chauncey had the better career. His peak period is both longer and better than Chauncey's, and it's actually not as close as I thought it was. That said, it's also undebatable that Sammy had the better performance of the two players during their time as Wolves players: Sam's 03/04 season was just really damn good. For example, his VORP during that season (4.5) is 2x better than the best VORP that Chauncey posted as a Wolf (2.1 during the 2001-02 season). This probably shouldn't be a surprise though, since we all know that Chauncey was good with us, but REALLY took off once he joined the Pistons.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Aug 31, 2018 9:48:13 GMT -6
PG starter Cassell SG starter Butler SF starter AK47 PF starter KG C starter KAT
PG Bench Billups SG Bench Sealy SF Bench Eddie Griffin PF Bench Love C Bench Pekovic
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Aug 31, 2018 11:05:29 GMT -6
WOW! - No love for Spree? - Wally's best year would make him relevant in today's NBA. No love for him either... - Mike Miller, KMart... really? - Sad: four of five players in the top ever lineup are retired...
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Post by jzwoopwoop on Aug 31, 2018 11:57:22 GMT -6
WOW! - No love for Spree? - Wally's best year would make him relevant in today's NBA. No love for him either... - Mike Miller, KMart... really? - Sad: four of five players in the top ever lineup are retired... Re: Spree - eh. Might seem hypocritical since I love Sam Cassell so much, but eh. I attribute 03/04 more to KG and Sam, Hoiberg and the team as a whole. Re: Wally - His efficiency, esp from the 3pters, would've been HUGE in today's NBA. But his D sucks. Mike Miller and Kmart were really good basketball players, and remember: I'm not taking the version of those dudes when they played with the Wolves. If it was just a choice of Wolves-versions of those players then yes, Wally definitely performed best while he was a Twolf. But mid-career Kmart with the Kings and then Rockets was amazing: 6th man of the year winner, incredibly efficient, perpetual 20ppg scorer (remember, Wally only scored over 20ppg once in his career). He was also a terrible defender, like Wally, but just a better, more efficient scorer than Wally. Early-mid career Mike Miller was ridiculous: 6th Man of the Year in 05/06 season, and the following season he shot 40.5% on 3s while taking over 7 a game! Wally had solid 3pt %s but never on the volume that Mike Miller attempted. Wally never attempted more than 3.6 three pointers per game. Mike Miller's career average is 3.8 3PA's per game. Mike Miller's passing was also significantly better than Wally's, and while neither player was great on D, Miller was probably average or slightly below while Wally was terrible. Basically, Miller just would've filled gaps in a starting lineup with Chauncey, Jimmy, KG and KAT way better than Wally. Wally needed the ball in his hands more to be effective. Those plays need to be going to more talented players than Wally to be used most effectively. Miller can provide impact better in lower usage roles. That is certainly an argument against Kmart too, but I just think Kmart was a clearly better and more efficient scorer than Wally. Wally was a fine player, but his full career was just not that good. Certainly, to me, not as good as Mike Miller or Kevin Martin.
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Post by levine on Aug 31, 2018 13:35:02 GMT -6
I think if you're talking best versions of dudes, not just Wolves versions, Brandon Roy has to be up there with Butler and AK47 for wings. Way ahead of guys like Wally, Martin, Spree, Miller, etc.
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Post by jzwoopwoop on Aug 31, 2018 14:14:53 GMT -6
I think if you're talking best versions of dudes, not just Wolves versions, Brandon Roy has to be up there with Butler and AK47 for wings. Way ahead of guys like Wally, Martin, Spree, Miller, etc. At first I agree that this is a MAJOR oversight on my part. But after giving it another minute of thought, I would still be tempted to put Roy underneath those players, just because his peak was so short lived. I mean, definitions here are obviously highly subjective here - but I kinda take it as, cumulative value of player's full career. So it's not quite as simple as: the absolute best version of a player, frozen in time at that moment. Subjective enough for ya? :P That said, I still would probably put Roy ahead of Wally there. Roy provided absolutely insane performance for about four total seasons (spread across five actual seasons). Levine, where are your answers to this silly question?!
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Post by Bonecrusher on Aug 31, 2018 14:57:37 GMT -6
I think if you're talking best versions of dudes, not just Wolves versions, Brandon Roy has to be up there with Butler and AK47 for wings. Way ahead of guys like Wally, Martin, Spree, Miller, etc. At first I agree that this is a MAJOR oversight on my part. But after giving it another minute of thought, I would still be tempted to put Roy underneath those players, just because his peak was so short lived. I mean, definitions here are obviously highly subjective here - but I kinda take it as, cumulative value of player's full career. So it's not quite as simple as: the absolute best version of a player, frozen in time at that moment. Subjective enough for ya? :P That said, I still would probably put Roy ahead of Wally there. Roy provided absolutely insane performance for about four total seasons (spread across five actual seasons). Levine, where are your answers to this silly question?! I'm looking a defense though as well. Roy wasn't that great defensively whereas some of the others were.
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Post by levine on Aug 31, 2018 15:31:46 GMT -6
At first I agree that this is a MAJOR oversight on my part. But after giving it another minute of thought, I would still be tempted to put Roy underneath those players, just because his peak was so short lived. I mean, definitions here are obviously highly subjective here - but I kinda take it as, cumulative value of player's full career. So it's not quite as simple as: the absolute best version of a player, frozen in time at that moment. Subjective enough for ya? That said, I still would probably put Roy ahead of Wally there. Roy provided absolutely insane performance for about four total seasons (spread across five actual seasons). Levine, where are your answers to this silly question?! I'm looking a defense though as well. Roy wasn't that great defensively whereas some of the others were. Definitely better on defense than Martin or Wally.
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Post by levine on Aug 31, 2018 15:34:50 GMT -6
At first I agree that this is a MAJOR oversight on my part. But after giving it another minute of thought, I would still be tempted to put Roy underneath those players, just because his peak was so short lived. I mean, definitions here are obviously highly subjective here - but I kinda take it as, cumulative value of player's full career. So it's not quite as simple as: the absolute best version of a player, frozen in time at that moment. Subjective enough for ya? That said, I still would probably put Roy ahead of Wally there. Roy provided absolutely insane performance for about four total seasons (spread across five actual seasons). Levine, where are your answers to this silly question?! I'm looking a defense though as well. Roy wasn't that great defensively whereas some of the others were. I guess I'd go: Billups Butler AK47 KG KAT I'd be tempted to got with Roy/Butler, but I think I like the overall synergy and unselfishness of that group. But...I'm not sure there is the one guy you can just give the ball to if you desperately need to create a basket. Maybe its Billups, but that would be my one caveat for putting Roy in my lineup.
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Post by Nick K on Aug 31, 2018 15:55:20 GMT -6
Easy for me....
Sammy Buckets Garnett Love KAT
Even though it was only for a year, Sammy was unbelievable. Clutch.
What a monster rebounding group they'd be.
I loved Kirilenko here when he wasn't hurt. He was the glue that made a huge difference.
Brandon Roy was great but he only played limited unremarkable minutes for us. His early years at Portland were really something.
I loved Wally's shooting. He wasn't as bad defensively as people say. They never really used Wally enough. Every once in a while they would run p and r with Wally and KG and it was money. Too bad they used it so little.
The dog days are finally coming to an end.
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Post by levine on Aug 31, 2018 16:13:24 GMT -6
Man...This is such a sad exercise when you think about our history:
Butler: 1 year AK47: 1 year Roy: 1 year Cassell: 2 years Billups: 2 years KAT: 3 years
Basically 4/5th of everyone's lineups consists of guys who played for us for 3 years or less.
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Post by Nick K on Aug 31, 2018 16:36:56 GMT -6
Man...This is such a sad exercise when you think about our history: Butler: 1 year AK47: 1 year Roy: 1 year Cassell: 2 years Billups: 2 years KAT: 3 years Basically 4/5th of everyone's lineups consists of guys who played for us for 3 years or less. Easily explains why we've been horsebleep for so long.
I like our current starting five. The numbers were fantastic when they were on the floor together.
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Aug 31, 2018 17:26:23 GMT -6
Cassell Roy Butler KG Towns
Bringing Love, Billups and Wally off the bench to fill out my playoff rotation with AK47 and Pek glued to the bench.
<edit> maybe I need to add Marbury in case I needs some assists and some dimes
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 4, 2018 10:08:17 GMT -6
I was going to mention Brandon Roy, but levine took care of that already (going to take some time to not capitalize LE in your name, man, though I refreshed my username coming here as well, so I can't complain...too much).
I would ask about a version 3 where you could choose any player that was technically on the Wolves' roster, even if they never stepped on the court. For example, when the Wolves drafted Ray Allen before trading him for Marbury, or Quentin Richardson in 2009 when he got traded 4 times before finally landing in Miami. Granted, Richardson would never make the list, but that's an example. I get that we never got to use their talents, but all it would have taken for us to keep them and have them play for us is to not trade them or cut them. All we had to do is say "no thank you" to trading Ray Allen for Marbury. I do feel that is a legit "what if" scenario.
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Post by levine on Sept 4, 2018 10:46:37 GMT -6
I was going to mention Brandon Roy, but levine took care of that already ( going to take some time to not capitalize LE in your name, man, though I refreshed my username coming here as well, so I can't complain...too much). That was always a typo. I held the Shift button down too long and didn't notice until it was too late...
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Post by Nick K on Sept 4, 2018 11:26:58 GMT -6
I was going to mention Brandon Roy, but levine took care of that already ( going to take some time to not capitalize LE in your name, man, though I refreshed my username coming here as well, so I can't complain...too much). That was always a typo. I held the Shift button down too long and didn't notice until it was too late... That had become a classic. :)
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Post by stretcharmstrong on Sept 4, 2018 13:27:07 GMT -6
I just cannot see why we would go with AK47. He was barely here and his career was clearly on the downside. Maybe if we had him in his prime. But, I am looking at this from overall performance as a Wolf.
PG: Marbury, Billups SG: Butler , Campbell, Sealy SF: Wally PF: KG, Gugliotta C: KAT, Love, Smith (no real choice here)
Rob
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Post by jzwoopwoop on Sept 4, 2018 14:24:31 GMT -6
I just cannot see why we would go with AK47. He was barely here and his career was clearly on the downside. Maybe if we had him in his prime. But, I am looking at this from overall performance as a Wolf. PG: Marbury, Billups SG: Butler , Campbell, Sealy SF: Wally PF: KG, Gugliotta C: KAT, Love, Smith (no real choice here) Rob I did mention that I thikn there are two valid ways to interpret the question of "What is the best wolves starting lineup of all time?" One interpretation means you can choose the best version of a player, as long as that player at one point actually stepped on an NBA court in a Wolves jersey. Under that interpretation, prime AK47 would be amazing as an all-defense, low-usage, high-impact player next to higher usage players like KG, KAT and Jimmy. If you interpret the question in the second way, where you must choose the version of the player when they wore a Wolves jersey, then yes, it's hard to make a case for Kirilenko.
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Post by stretcharmstrong on Sept 5, 2018 7:31:39 GMT -6
If you take the best version of a player, then Longley should be a back up at Center or a host of other players that came in briefly at the end of their career.
What is interesting is with PG, not a single person has mentioned Rubio. They prefer short term PG's we have had over him.
When I reviewed my line up, I went with all Wolves centered players other than Butler. Meaning more than one year as a player.
Robert
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Post by jzwoopwoop on Sept 5, 2018 7:48:53 GMT -6
If you take the best version of a player, then Longley should be a back up at Center or a host of other players that came in briefly at the end of their career. What is interesting is with PG, not a single person has mentioned Rubio. They prefer short term PG's we have had over him. When I reviewed my line up, I went with all Wolves centered players other than Butler. Meaning more than one year as a player. Robert Longley is not even in the same breath as guys like KAT, KG, Love especially in the way the game is played today. I like Rubio. A lot. But he's not on the same level as Chauncey and Sam Cassell.
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