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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Sept 19, 2018 16:22:11 GMT -6
In this context what does ‘take care of me mean’ ? Clear out players he doesn’t like? $$$$$ and probably unloading the guys that weren't bought in. I don't blame Butler for letting it be known his intentions. I blame a lot of this on the Wolves FO and Taylor. A lot of this could have been prevented... what $$$$$ did we not offer that he wanted us to offer? thats my point. we took as much care of him $$$$ wise as we are permitted by the CBA. that cant be the reason, unless we told him we wouldnt give him the max later, which I cant imagine we told him. so is he just trying to say we failed to take care of him by failing to unload wiggins and towns? WTF.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 16:38:39 GMT -6
Its obviously the agent trying to paint the Wolves as the bad guys in this situation. I dont follow. the wolves may deserve at least some blame, but what are they suggesting the wolves were supposed to do to take care of him? If Jimmy is leaving because he doesn't like KAT and Wiggins, Jimmy looks like the bad guy and looks difficult to deal with. If Jimmy leaves because we wouldn't pay him enough, we look like the bad guys. Its all spin from Jimmy's agent to shift the blame away from his (one and only) client.
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Sept 19, 2018 16:50:02 GMT -6
I dont follow. the wolves may deserve at least some blame, but what are they suggesting the wolves were supposed to do to take care of him? If Jimmy is leaving because he doesn't like KAT and Wiggins, Jimmy looks like the bad guy and looks difficult to deal with. If Jimmy leaves because we wouldn't pay him enough, we look like the bad guys. Its all spin from Jimmy's agent to shift the blame away from his (one and only) client. Doesn’t seem like very effective spin. It was previously publicallly reported that we made the courtesy offer and he declined. It’s public knowledge that we offer the most allowed. Since money is then off the table as a reason of not being taken care of, that leaves only unhappiness about personnel decisions.
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Post by The Country Club on Sept 19, 2018 16:51:22 GMT -6
Given this team's history and given Jimmy's age + injury history, I completely can...
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Post by cory on Sept 19, 2018 17:08:08 GMT -6
I would love to be a fly on the wall during the Thibs and Taylor conversations presently. I just don't know where this is going to go and I don't know if Thibs should have any say on the next moves the organization has to make. What an insane turn of events.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 17:29:41 GMT -6
If Jimmy is leaving because he doesn't like KAT and Wiggins, Jimmy looks like the bad guy and looks difficult to deal with. If Jimmy leaves because we wouldn't pay him enough, we look like the bad guys. Its all spin from Jimmy's agent to shift the blame away from his (one and only) client. Doesn’t seem like very effective spin. It was previously publicallly reported that we made the courtesy offer and he declined. It’s public knowledge that we offer the most allowed. Since money is then off the table as a reason of not being taken care of, that leaves only unhappiness about personnel decisions. Its all he's got. Its a last ditch attempt to make his client look good. He's not a good agent. Here is his list of clients: basketball.realgm.com/info/agent-client-list/Bernie-Lee/209
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Post by Nick K on Sept 19, 2018 17:55:03 GMT -6
Doesn’t seem like very effective spin. It was previously publicallly reported that we made the courtesy offer and he declined. It’s public knowledge that we offer the most allowed. Since money is then off the table as a reason of not being taken care of, that leaves only unhappiness about personnel decisions. Its all he's got. Its a last ditch attempt to make his client look good. He's not a good agent. Here is his list of clients: basketball.realgm.com/info/agent-client-list/Bernie-Lee/209What a hoot! I noticed Ron Howard. Must be the hollywood director....Opie. :) The I saw Mike James! Flippin Mike James of Timberwolves fame. What a loser. On the radio with Barriero "what do I do bad??" he asks. The answer is everything Mike.
Bernie Lee better hang on to Jimmy for dear life.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 19, 2018 18:07:50 GMT -6
I was just thinking of the Wolves season kick off. Can't imagine Butler showing his face here or even Thibs for that matter.
Wouldn't it be great if Thibs and Butler were both gone by next Tuesday?
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 18:18:05 GMT -6
I was just thinking of the Wolves season kick off. Can't imagine Butler showing his face here or even Thibs for that matter. Wouldn't it be great if Thibs and Butler were both gone by next Tuesday? I'll be surprised if Butler shows up to Media Day on Monday.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 19:59:52 GMT -6
Key Sang@Phantele_ Hoo boy. Scoop just confirmed what I think we all suspected after the Shams report: KAT’s terms are specifically for Jimmy to be off the roster. So yeah, this ain’t about money. This is something crazy personal between them
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Post by boognish on Sept 20, 2018 7:25:10 GMT -6
"I love Jimmy Butler's defense and determination. Loved the way he held court in the locker room after a win+his transparency after a loss. But brought in to mentor two high-upside kids by a coach who fawned over his every move, he didn't even begin to dig in. No leadership." -@brittrobson, 9/19/18
During the season, Britt couldn't say enough good things about Butler, but even he has changed his tune. I know we'd all prefer to see Thibs gone as well, but what are the odds that Glen keeps him, demotes him to just coaching duties, and brings in a qualified GM to run things?
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Post by cory on Sept 20, 2018 9:22:39 GMT -6
"I love Jimmy Butler's defense and determination. Loved the way he held court in the locker room after a win+his transparency after a loss. But brought in to mentor two high-upside kids by a coach who fawned over his every move, he didn't even begin to dig in. No leadership." -@brittrobson, 9/19/18 During the season, Britt couldn't say enough good things about Butler, but even he has changed his tune. I know we'd all prefer to see Thibs gone as well, but what are the odds that Glen keeps him, demotes him to just coaching duties, and brings in a qualified GM to run things? I'd say not good but who knows at this point. The ultimatum should be you can coach or you can be fired from everything. David Griffin will take over immediately take it or leave it.
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Post by levine on Sept 20, 2018 9:52:46 GMT -6
According to multiple league sources, coach Tom Thibodeau has no intention of letting Butler go for young, rebuilding-type pieces. Thibodeau, hotly pursued as a coaching free agent after leaving Chicago in 2015, went to Minnesota because he thought the team would be ready to contend quickly. Butler, acquired last summer in a trade with the Bulls, had become part of that thought process. Thibodeau has zero interest in taking a step back with Minnesota, even, according to sources, if it means he ultimately parts ways with the team. "No one expects Tom to coach a 25-win or even 35-win team," one front-office executive told Sporting News. "Even if he has to agree to dissolve the contract, they’d do that before they go and trade Butler for draft picks." www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-timberwolves-news-contract-knicks-clippers-nets-lakers/mi5eu2s5b7n71ui643ikr5nes
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Post by levine on Sept 20, 2018 9:59:15 GMT -6
How did Tom Thibodeau's Wolves end with Jimmy Butler wanting out?Per @jonkrawczynski and The Athletic, Jimmy Butler has asked Tom Thibodeau and Scott Layden for a trade. This is the culmination of a long offseason of discontent (a word I use very loosely in this circumstance) between basically everyone in the Timberwolves organization, but specifically between Jimmy and Karl-Anthony Towns. I do not know the exact nature of their feud, but it is not - repeat NOT - primarily about basketball. Consider: the problem came up seemingly overnight after the season ended after no substantial reports of issues between them during the season. It was immediately vicious in nature, and has resulted in Jimmy abjectly refusing to step foot in Minnesota ever since. If it is the case that there is an intense, personal rift between the two - which, for what it's worth, explains basically everything that has happened, if you buy into it even for theory's sake - then a trade demand by one or the other was probably the only realistic outcome. I have a hard time seeing Jimmy and KAT ever sharing a locker room, much less a court. I think there are two distinct and very divergent possibilites for the Wolves now. The first is that Jimmy is traded quickly. As in, within the week. Training camp begins in just 5 days, and given that Jimmy would not fly in even to meet with Thibs when he supposedly has to be here in a week anyway, that suggests to me that, if he's still on the roster come Monday, he will simply be a no-show at camp. That sounds like a situation no one in the organization wants to deal with on media day. The second possibility is much more aggrivating, because it plays to type for Thibs. Let me explain. The max contract offer was made to KAT back in the second week of July. He obviously hasn't signed it. We know that KAT was asking for a face to face meeting with Thibs before signing - a request that, by all accounts, Thibs has summarily ignored. And then just this week, Shams confirmed that KAT would not sign the max deal until there was some sort of resolution about Jimmy's status, which it now appears to mean simply whether he'd still be on the roster or not. [UPDATE 4:15 pm 9/19/18: @dwolfsonkstp has verified on ESPN1500 Radio that part of KAT’s conditions for signing the max contract is for Jimmy to be off the roster. This all but confirms that the issue between him and Jimmy is personal, not professional.] Given all that, it's probably safe to assume that whatever is going on between the two was already in full swing at the time the max contract was put on the table. This means that Thibs either didn't know about what was happening - a pretty implausable scenario for a President of Basketball Operations who sees Jimmy as a surrogate son - or that he did know and, like KAT's meeting requests, has been intetnionally ignoring it all summer. This would line up with what we've seen of his behavior already - dismissive of things he simply doesn't want to deal with. I believe - and I want to stress that this is mostly speculation on my part - that Thibs knew whatever is going on with Jimmy and KAT would be really bad, and that because it involved Jimmy, he didn't know how to process a solution that wouldn't cost him his guy. So he simply chose to ignore it in hopes it would go away. That's why this has been left to boil out of control all summer rather than being proactively addressed in early July when it probably should have been. Thibs puts loyalty above all else, including, at times, sound reasoning. This would seem to be one of those times. This then offers a very uncomfortable possibility that Thibs will simply dig his heels in and try to ride this out. Possibly without Jimmy showing up. Possibly with KAT not signing his extension - remember, the deadline is only three weeks away. Either way, Thibs is now in a no-win situation. Not only is Jimmy his dude, but his job is tied to winning games, and a lot of them at that. Jimmy is a top 10-15 player when healthy, and trading him with no leverage for a great return will only hurt the team win the win/loss column. Conversely, Thibs cannot solve this by trading Towns instead, as Glen Taylor has strongly implied he will fire Thibs before losing KAT. Thibs is faced with either trading his guy - which in his mind is tantamount to treason - and trying to win with a lesser team headlined by a player he doesn't particularly like and who feels has been bullied by Thibs all last season, or refusing to make a trade and putting the team at high risk of complete detonation over a scandal that is no longer hidden from the public. KAT refusing to sign the extension and demanding a trade would be unprecedented, but this situation itself is fairly unprecedented as it is. The possibility cannot be ruled out. The Wolves are now paying the consequences of not dealing with a serious problem in a timely and adult manner. And from trying to obscure what has really been going on from both the parties involved and us as fans. Thibs has always maintained intentional, practiced silence on the going-ons of the locker room, but in problem situations, that tends to just make things worse. As legendary Washington Post journalist Bob Woodward said about the Watergate scandal, "Let the silence suck out the truth." That is what has happened here. packmentality.squarespace.com/nba/jimmy-butler-demands-trade
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Post by firethibs on Sept 20, 2018 10:15:48 GMT -6
I would love to be a fly on the wall during the Thibs and Taylor conversations presently. I just don't know where this is going to go and I don't know if Thibs should have any say on the next moves the organization has to make. What an insane turn of events. Sounds like Glen is in NY at league meetings. I bet they haven't even talked in person yet.
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Post by The Country Club on Sept 20, 2018 10:18:10 GMT -6
At some point, when will the owner stop dithering and demand Thibs to "fix it" or else...
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Post by cory on Sept 20, 2018 10:56:08 GMT -6
He's gotta go. He has no business being a POBO let alone a coach at this point if this is how you run an operation.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Sept 20, 2018 11:25:56 GMT -6
According to multiple league sources, coach Tom Thibodeau has no intention of letting Butler go for young, rebuilding-type pieces. Thibodeau, hotly pursued as a coaching free agent after leaving Chicago in 2015, went to Minnesota because he thought the team would be ready to contend quickly. Butler, acquired last summer in a trade with the Bulls, had become part of that thought process. Thibodeau has zero interest in taking a step back with Minnesota, even, according to sources, if it means he ultimately parts ways with the team. "No one expects Tom to coach a 25-win or even 35-win team," one front-office executive told Sporting News. "Even if he has to agree to dissolve the contract, they’d do that before they go and trade Butler for draft picks." www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-timberwolves-news-contract-knicks-clippers-nets-lakers/mi5eu2s5b7n71ui643ikr5nesThat is scary. Get me some draft picks and young un's to build a powerhouse. Compete now is fine for 1 chance or build for several chances.
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Post by levine on Sept 20, 2018 11:34:06 GMT -6
Eric has a really good piece this morning. Here is a chunk of it: Thibodeau’s “culture” is not one of hard work and collective effort, as I envisioned, but rather one of paranoia and loud noises; He’s a non-communicative control freak whose constant yelling and player overuse sucks all the joy out of the game. It’s a dystopia of NBA basketball. Even last season, as the Wolves were pushing for their first playoff berth in well over a decade, it was clear that nobody was really happy. Taylor didn’t, and doesn’t, like Thibs, the front office personnel were chafing, and most to the point, the players were generally unhappy with Thibs and with each other. Nobody was having fun. Jimmy Butler was consistently frustrated with the young players—as John Meyer pointed out in the most recent Wolvescast, he frequently looked ready to tear Andrew Wiggins’ head off in the locker room. We’ve gotten some specifics since the end of the season, with Jamal Crawford opting out of his deal (he remains unemployed) and being quoted that it was not a happy place with the Wolves. Local hero Tyus Jones was on the verge of asking for a trade at the end of the year due to his limited opportunities, but was talked out of it. Against the backdrop, a specific beef emerged between Butler and franchise centerpiece Karl-Anthony Towns. We’ve heard and seen the rumors, but what the beef actually is doesn’t really matter. What matters is this issue festered all summer and the organization did nothing to address it. Towns requested communication in July once his maximum contract extension was offered, but apparently never got it. Thibodeau, not a fan of communication, and not a believer in the importance of personal relationships to a successful basketball team, appears to have figured that once everyone was back in the gym, everything would work itself out. Eventually, KAT gave Glen Taylor an ultimatum: Him (Butler) or Me. This was a power play by Towns and his circle, who knew he had the leverage. It was a strike directly at Butler’s wallet, and here’s how: In order to get the biggest contract he can, Butler has to be on a team that holds his Bird Rights at the end of the upcoming season, when he becomes a restricted free agent. That could have been the Wolves, but for Towns’ ultimatum. Given that, Butler, who not only was frustrated with teammates, but rumors suggest perhaps has had enough of Thibs himself, did the only thing he could in order to maintain the possibility of getting a five year max deal next summer: He asked for a trade to a team that could give it to him, and also be in a position to perhaps bring in a second star as well. The rest here: www.canishoopus.com/2018/9/20/17881968/welcome-back-to-dysfunction-junction-minnesota-timberwolves-nba-jimmy-butler-thibodeau-towns-taylor
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Post by cory on Sept 20, 2018 11:41:19 GMT -6
Against the backdrop, a specific beef emerged between Butler and franchise centerpiece Karl-Anthony Towns. We’ve heard and seen the rumors, but what the beef actually is doesn’t really matter. What matters is this issue festered all summer and the organization did nothing to address it. Towns requested communication in July once his maximum contract extension was offered, but apparently never got it. I give KAT a lot of respect for his handling of this and playing his trump cards when he had to. Thibs will never be a head coach again after this.
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Post by levine on Sept 21, 2018 9:29:05 GMT -6
Lowe on Wiggins:
The Jimmy Butler drama masks another festering stench: What if Wiggins is just, like, not good? I was a cautious Wiggins optimist when analytics folks buried him as a teenaged rookie, but he has shown zero meaningful improvement over four seasons. If anything, he has gotten worse.
Some of that regression — the drop-off in free throws, for instance — stemmed from predictable fit issues with Butler, Jamal Crawford and even Derrick Rose. All three superseded Wiggins in the ball-handling hierarchy, shoving him into spot-up duty he approached with the enthusiasm of a teenager asked to rake the leaves:
Motion-tracking cameras recorded Wiggins "running fast" during only 4.8 percent of his time on the floor, one of the 10 lowest such figures in the league, per Second Spectrum. (Almost everyone in his slowpoke vicinity is a plodding 7-footer.) He has shown no aptitude on pull-up 3s, or on any sort of 3-pointer outside the corners — and he doesn’t shoot enough from the corners. Nobody guards him away from the ball.
His pick-and-roll work is rote. He still doesn’t know how to run his defender into screens. He’ll peek around a pick, only to moonwalk uselessly into a long jumper. Even when he has an advantage, he’ll stop short:
That is a fine shot for Chris Paul. Wiggins hit 32 percent of his long 2-pointers last season. He has never drained better than 38 percent in any season. There may be no more treasonous combination among midrange aficionados of frequency and inaccuracy.
He prefers to drive right or spin back that way, and everyone in the league knows it. (Ditto for his baseline spin on the left block — a move Houston sat on to an almost absurd degree in their first-round series last season.) He understands all the basic passing reads — roll man, weak-side corner — but his passing is paint by numbers. He makes the pass the defense expects, when they expect it.
Minnesota’s choreographed, old-school offense doesn’t help. Even as a secondary ball-handler, Wiggins doesn’t get the head starts Rubio enjoys in Utah. Minnesota’s offense is jagged, with no flow or timing. Defenses just ignore the first action and lay in wait for Wiggins.
You see glimpses of something more. Wiggins is a ridiculous athlete. He will occasionally fake toward a pick, tip his defender that direction, and zoom in for a dunk. He peppered Crawford with questions about threading pocket passes and lasers to the opposite corner, Crawford says.
He can bully smaller players in the post after switches (making him a useful screener for Jeff Teague), and hit the open man when help comes. But even down there, he too often settles:
You have to be prime Kobe Bryant for the math on those shots to work.
He has never had the impact he should on defense. He doesn’t rebound, force turnovers, or contest shots. He is a bystander.
He could be more on a team that played faster, with more shooting and fewer ball-handlers. But unless Wiggins improves, that team would be bad.
At some point, the tools and the highlights have to translate into something better than "smaller Rudy Gay." If Minnesota moves Butler or Tyus Jones — and Phoenix has asked about Jones, sources say — that would at least place Wiggins into some lineups with only one other primary ball-handler.
Regardless: Wiggins is almost 24. It’s time.
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Post by levine on Sept 21, 2018 9:33:53 GMT -6
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Post by firethibs on Sept 21, 2018 9:43:48 GMT -6
From Woj:
"Story filed to ESPN: Rival executives lobbing calls to Minnesota’s front office on possibility of trading for Jimmy Butler are getting inquires shut down. Minnesota is telling teams that Butler’s an elite player and franchise intends to keep him"
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Post by cory on Sept 21, 2018 9:49:44 GMT -6
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 21, 2018 10:18:51 GMT -6
Lowe on Wiggins: The Jimmy Butler drama masks another festering stench: What if Wiggins is just, like, not good? I was a cautious Wiggins optimist when analytics folks buried him as a teenaged rookie, but he has shown zero meaningful improvement over four seasons. If anything, he has gotten worse. Some of that regression — the drop-off in free throws, for instance — stemmed from predictable fit issues with Butler, Jamal Crawford and even Derrick Rose. All three superseded Wiggins in the ball-handling hierarchy, shoving him into spot-up duty he approached with the enthusiasm of a teenager asked to rake the leaves: Motion-tracking cameras recorded Wiggins "running fast" during only 4.8 percent of his time on the floor, one of the 10 lowest such figures in the league, per Second Spectrum. (Almost everyone in his slowpoke vicinity is a plodding 7-footer.) He has shown no aptitude on pull-up 3s, or on any sort of 3-pointer outside the corners — and he doesn’t shoot enough from the corners. Nobody guards him away from the ball. His pick-and-roll work is rote. He still doesn’t know how to run his defender into screens. He’ll peek around a pick, only to moonwalk uselessly into a long jumper. Even when he has an advantage, he’ll stop short: That is a fine shot for Chris Paul. Wiggins hit 32 percent of his long 2-pointers last season. He has never drained better than 38 percent in any season. There may be no more treasonous combination among midrange aficionados of frequency and inaccuracy. He prefers to drive right or spin back that way, and everyone in the league knows it. (Ditto for his baseline spin on the left block — a move Houston sat on to an almost absurd degree in their first-round series last season.) He understands all the basic passing reads — roll man, weak-side corner — but his passing is paint by numbers. He makes the pass the defense expects, when they expect it. Minnesota’s choreographed, old-school offense doesn’t help. Even as a secondary ball-handler, Wiggins doesn’t get the head starts Rubio enjoys in Utah. Minnesota’s offense is jagged, with no flow or timing. Defenses just ignore the first action and lay in wait for Wiggins. You see glimpses of something more. Wiggins is a ridiculous athlete. He will occasionally fake toward a pick, tip his defender that direction, and zoom in for a dunk. He peppered Crawford with questions about threading pocket passes and lasers to the opposite corner, Crawford says. He can bully smaller players in the post after switches (making him a useful screener for Jeff Teague), and hit the open man when help comes. But even down there, he too often settles: You have to be prime Kobe Bryant for the math on those shots to work. He has never had the impact he should on defense. He doesn’t rebound, force turnovers, or contest shots. He is a bystander. He could be more on a team that played faster, with more shooting and fewer ball-handlers. But unless Wiggins improves, that team would be bad. At some point, the tools and the highlights have to translate into something better than "smaller Rudy Gay." If Minnesota moves Butler or Tyus Jones — and Phoenix has asked about Jones, sources say — that would at least place Wiggins into some lineups with only one other primary ball-handler. Regardless: Wiggins is almost 24. It’s time. Lowe is so good.
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