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Post by kingsxman on Sept 18, 2018 11:05:08 GMT -6
I am sure this won't be a popular opinion, but if a team was willing to take Wiggins off our hands as well, I may be open to dealing KAT and building around Butler. But, I'm not willing to try and build around Butler with Wiggins' massive contract eating up all of our cap space to get good talent around Butler. I'd also want at least a verbal agreement that we would be in consideration for Butler to stick around if that were to happen. If Butler was already over MN it would not make sense for us to make a deal to clear the roster for him. If that were the case, I might wait until next season to make the move so we could be ready to give Butler the contract immediately following the deal. Besides, other teams would have more cap space to be able to take on both KAT and Wiggins and not have to send back empty salary. But, to me, the best scenario is still keeping KAT. Ultimately I would rather have KAT and get something for Butler, even if it's small and we have to keep Wiggins. But, if we can dump Wiggins and get a KAT-level asset back while securing Butler long-term, I would be open to that. Sucks that we are in this situation at all. And, I find it interesting that the one and only move Thibs did that I liked may actually be the move that completely decimates this team. Say what you will about Kahn...he never put us here. There was apparently a rift between Rubio and Love, which is very similar to this situation with Rubio and Butler being Kahn/Thibs' guys and Love and KAT being the previous GM's guys, but Rubio and Love figured out how to coexist. Though, I have to say that KAT and Butler are more to blame than Thibs; you need to learn how to get along with the people you work with. But, Thibs certainly isn't fixing the problem very well. Your right......its not a popular opinion... I personally will cancel my season tickets if they pick Jimmy over KAT. Jimmy may help them more "today"...but he has tons of Thibs miles on him and has proven that he is not a good locker room guy. Honestly, how do you build around that? Look...I really did like Jimmy. I thought he was just what we needed...and still may be....if things work out. But Jimmy wont be in the Hall of Fame and you have a guy like KAT who is has HOF potential...and is litterally just scratching the surface. You have to take that gamble if your the wolves and put your money on the young stud with the much higher upside. I dont recall a Rubio Love rift other than Rubio didnt care for the way Love was whinning about his contract situation. BTW, how much of this issue with KAT/Butler exists if Rubio is still on the team? Rubio wouldnt allow it to fester during the season like this. Which leads me to the "blame game". Sure this really is on KAT/BUtler...but at some point the supposed adult in teh room (GM/President) needs to take care of his investement and sit the main players down and figure shit out before its too late. This has gone on FAAAARRRR too long. Thibs cant seem to get beyond "just do your damn job!". Life doesnt work that way Tom. Being the head guy means you are also responsible for managing personalities. Yep...it sucks...but it comes with the territory and if you didnt want to do it you shouldnt have taken the job. So Thibs...right back at you: "do your damn job"!
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 18, 2018 11:08:02 GMT -6
Not to be nit picking, but how was Thibs supposed to know Buckets is putting the moves on KAT's GF? And shouldn't KAT be happy the girl did what he did (assuming she had a consensual relationship with JB) now rather than after he married her? JB was a dick for this move, but in a convoluted way, he actually did KAT a big favor. I do not know any of these persons at a personal level, but KAT strikes me as the kind of clean cut kid who deserves better than the standard gold-digging "supermodel"... He's not. But dont pretend for a minute that he didnt know what was going on shortly after it happened (if this is indeed what happened). Thibs at one point said "I talk to Jimmy everyday". If thats the case then there really is no excuse for letting this go on this long.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 18, 2018 11:31:33 GMT -6
Meeting moved to LA. Unsure if it'll happen now today or not.
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Post by levine on Sept 18, 2018 11:42:57 GMT -6
Meeting moved to LA. Unsure if it'll happen now today or not. That's...interesting. Is it a power play by Butler making Thibs come to him? Is it to make sure Glen isn't included? --------------- Adrian Wojnarowski✔@wojespn Minnesota's Tom Thibodeau is traveling to Los Angeles to meet with Jimmy Butler today, league sources tell ESPN. Original plan had been a meeting in Minneapolis, but that changed in the past 24 hours. 9:45 AM - Sep 18, 2018
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Post by levine on Sept 18, 2018 12:04:28 GMT -6
Also a bit odd that Jimmy (and the whole damn team) isn't currently in Minnesota with camp opening in less than a week. Apparently its just Tyus and Tolliver (who both live here) and now Teague being the only other vet to show up to the voluntary stuff last week.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Sept 18, 2018 12:34:48 GMT -6
They absolutely need to fire Thibs and now. The dysfunction is stunning and if Butler had anything to do with KAT and his GF breaking up who would want to play with Butler. Super dick move and much better to build around KAT instead of Butler. It's amazing to me how Thibs can destroy a team like this so easily and still have a job.
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Post by levine on Sept 18, 2018 12:45:35 GMT -6
They absolutely need to fire Thibs and now. The dysfunction is stunning and if Butler had anything to do with KAT and his GF breaking up who would want to play with Butler. Super dick move and much better to build around KAT instead of Butler. It's amazing to me how Thibs can destroy a team like this so easily and still have a job. Even if Jimmy had absolutely nothing to do with KAT's breakup, it sure appears there is an unfixable fracture among the players (and among some players and the coaching staff (and among the front office and ownership))... If this was a first instance for Jimmy or Thibs, it would be one thing. But we're absolutely at a point where you need to go back and look at their histories of conflicts and see who the common parts ALWAYS were. Someone at Canis brought up an absolutely perfect quote from the great show Justified: “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.”
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Sept 18, 2018 13:23:57 GMT -6
He's not. But dont pretend for a minute that he didnt know what was going on shortly after it happened (if this is indeed what happened). Thibs at one point said "I talk to Jimmy everyday". If thats the case then there really is no excuse for letting this go on this long. I would imagine they do not discuss their respective amorous interests much! I mean, really, who would pick Thibs to talk about that hot new chick they can't stop thinking about...try to imagine the feedback!
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Post by Nick K on Sept 18, 2018 13:51:20 GMT -6
As Levine said seems like a total power play by Jimmy. Jimmy is the problem that has to be dealt with and the sooner the better. I've never gone from liking a player to disliking a player faster than Butler. This is such an unfortunate situation.
Thibs HAD to have known about this months ago, yet he did nothing.
Flip has to be rolling over in his grave. RIP.
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Sept 18, 2018 14:16:16 GMT -6
Thibs kept signing all these Bulls retreads to make sure any decision to fire him and rebuild the team will be as painful as possible for the next guy and for the owner. I mean who wants Rose, Deng, Gibson, Toli on a rebuilding team? So, in his mind, if it comes to a choice between fire Thibs/trade JB/rebuild around KAT vs. trade KAT/make the first PO round due diligence, he wnated as many chips on his side as possible.
Now on the topic of trading KAT, if MIN could get a Davis/Embiid type asset for him, that would be something you have to really look at. KAT is not damaged goods, is a good kid, young HOF potential. If MIN decide to sign him and put him on the market, LAL might come to regret signing LBJ this summer...
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Post by levine on Sept 18, 2018 14:31:06 GMT -6
Thibs kept signing all these Bulls retreads to make sure any decision to fire him and rebuild the team will be as painful as possible for the next guy and for the owner. I mean who wants Rose, Deng, Gibson, Toli on a rebuilding team? So, in his mind, if it comes to a choice between fire Thibs/trade JB/rebuild around KAT vs. trade KAT/make the first PO round due diligence, he wnated as many chips on his side as possible. Now on the topic of trading KAT, if MIN could get a Davis/Embiid type asset for him, that would be something you have to really look at. KAT is not damaged goods, is a good kid, young HOF potential. If MIN decide to sign him and put him on the market, LAL might come to regret signing LBJ this summer... The only saving grace is that all their contracts are up after this season.
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salty
Full Member
Posts: 185
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Post by salty on Sept 18, 2018 15:10:31 GMT -6
We're just in a hopeless spot now. A functioning and well run team would not be in this place but if there was this big of a rift in the players, and it was clear one of them was going to leave, they would be dealt. You don't give up assets for Butler and then lose him for nothing in the span of 2 years if you are a competent front office. So our options are: 1) Status quo, Butler leaves next summer, Towns is still disgruntled because Thibs is here and the handling of the situation has been a mess. 2) Trade Butler, fire Thibs, rebuild. 3) Trade KAT, Thibs stays, Jimmy still possibly leaves. 2 is the only palatable option for me. Please be #2, please be #2, please be #2.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Sept 18, 2018 15:12:39 GMT -6
Thibs kept signing all these Bulls retreads to make sure any decision to fire him and rebuild the team will be as painful as possible for the next guy and for the owner. I mean who wants Rose, Deng, Gibson, Toli on a rebuilding team? So, in his mind, if it comes to a choice between fire Thibs/trade JB/rebuild around KAT vs. trade KAT/make the first PO round due diligence, he wnated as many chips on his side as possible. Now on the topic of trading KAT, if MIN could get a Davis/Embiid type asset for him, that would be something you have to really look at. KAT is not damaged goods, is a good kid, young HOF potential. If MIN decide to sign him and put him on the market, LAL might come to regret signing LBJ this summer... The only saving grace is that all their contracts are up after this season. Butler isn't going to be here for much longer. Why would anyone want to be on a team with so many players they dislike and it sounds like there is a broken relationship between KAT and Butler and with rumors of Butler not interested in signed let him walk. If we can't do a sign and trade let him walk as it will free up space.
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Post by levine on Sept 18, 2018 17:09:30 GMT -6
From Wile at Canis:
Jon K was talking Wolves on KFAN a few minutes ago • Wasn’t sure when meeting would occur today • Thinks fact that no Wolves starters other than Teague in town bad sign. Most other teams have guys together and practicing informally before camp. • Thinks fact KAT has not signed extension very bad sign. Thinks it is not impossible that he would take qualifying offer. • Thinks fact that Jimmy unsure on future with team when he is Thib’s biggest ally is very bad sign.
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 19, 2018 9:43:08 GMT -6
I am sure this won't be a popular opinion, but if a team was willing to take Wiggins off our hands as well, I may be open to dealing KAT and building around Butler. But, I'm not willing to try and build around Butler with Wiggins' massive contract eating up all of our cap space to get good talent around Butler. I'd also want at least a verbal agreement that we would be in consideration for Butler to stick around if that were to happen. If Butler was already over MN it would not make sense for us to make a deal to clear the roster for him. If that were the case, I might wait until next season to make the move so we could be ready to give Butler the contract immediately following the deal. Besides, other teams would have more cap space to be able to take on both KAT and Wiggins and not have to send back empty salary. But, to me, the best scenario is still keeping KAT. Ultimately I would rather have KAT and get something for Butler, even if it's small and we have to keep Wiggins. But, if we can dump Wiggins and get a KAT-level asset back while securing Butler long-term, I would be open to that. Sucks that we are in this situation at all. And, I find it interesting that the one and only move Thibs did that I liked may actually be the move that completely decimates this team. Say what you will about Kahn...he never put us here. There was apparently a rift between Rubio and Love, which is very similar to this situation with Rubio and Butler being Kahn/Thibs' guys and Love and KAT being the previous GM's guys, but Rubio and Love figured out how to coexist. Though, I have to say that KAT and Butler are more to blame than Thibs; you need to learn how to get along with the people you work with. But, Thibs certainly isn't fixing the problem very well. Your right......its not a popular opinion... I personally will cancel my season tickets if they pick Jimmy over KAT. Jimmy may help them more "today"...but he has tons of Thibs miles on him and has proven that he is not a good locker room guy. Honestly, how do you build around that? Look...I really did like Jimmy. I thought he was just what we needed...and still may be....if things work out. But Jimmy wont be in the Hall of Fame and you have a guy like KAT who is has HOF potential...and is litterally just scratching the surface. You have to take that gamble if your the wolves and put your money on the young stud with the much higher upside. I should probably clarify the type of thing I am talking. I mean someone like Porzingis and salary for KAT and Wiggins. I'm not talking getting a mid-level player and a bunch of picks for KAT and Wiggins. I mean a guy who is slightly below KAT overall for them taking on Wiggins' salary. Ideally someone we could build around after Butler is gone. If the deal is done right, we still wouldn't really be building "around Butler", but rather Butler is the first piece we build around the new guy. There isn't a whole lot of players that quite meet that level (there's a lot I would take, like Ben Simmons, but I think he is too good a player to actually be traded for KAT and Wiggins unless Philly does not see Wiggins' contract as a significant problem, which I cannot imagine is the case), but there are probably half a dozen or so players that hit that billing if I took the time to do some digging. Porzingis is the first one to come to mind. I dont recall a Rubio Love rift other than Rubio didnt care for the way Love was whinning about his contract situation. BTW, how much of this issue with KAT/Butler exists if Rubio is still on the team? Rubio wouldnt allow it to fester during the season like this. Most of the rift came out after Love was traded. After the trade Rubio questioned Love's leadership in the media and Love took a shot back. I want to say there were a few barbs exchanged, but it got quiet quickly. It was certainly no LAbron/Irving or WB/KD situation, but I do remember a few shots being taken from both sides right after the trade. But, whatever was there, they didn't let it impact the game on the floor, as Butler and KAT seem to be doing. It also didn't impact who was on the team and who wasn't (though one could argue that we have no idea how much of a factor Rubio was in Love's ultimate decision to tell Flip he was not coming back, but I suspect Love had many things higher on his list than any issues with Rubio). It is sad that they can't figure out how to move through it. There are a lot of players who are on the same team, hate each other, and go out and play hard every game. Honestly, I think both of these guys need to grow up. I don't have a problem with KAT not signing an extension over this or with Butler telling us he won't come back over it. It makes sense that players want the option to go to work places that don't have people they don't like. But, it's everything else that is unacceptable. Suck it up, be professional and do your jobs. You don't have to send them a Christmas card.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 11:23:59 GMT -6
Nate:
My bet: I think the trade demand will be public by the end of the day. The meeting being in LA and the idea that Jimmy wants his Bird rights next year while not being on a team with KAT limits the number of things that can happen. They can’t go into camp with the status quo. It will be a circus.
There is a race to get the trade demand bit in print and everyone is angling for it. Strib, PiPress, Athletic, Shams, SI, Woj…
I guess they could still try and get KAT and Butler on the same page in the next 5 days but that seems like a long shot.
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Post by wunderwolf on Sept 19, 2018 11:32:32 GMT -6
Nate: My bet: I think the trade demand will be public by the end of the day. The meeting being in LA and the idea that Jimmy wants his Bird rights next year while not being on a team with KAT limits the number of things that can happen. They can’t go into camp with the status quo. It will be a circus. There is a race to get the trade demand bit in print and everyone is angling for it. Strib, PiPress, Athletic, Shams, SI, Woj… I guess they could still try and get KAT and Butler on the same page in the next 5 days but that seems like a long shot. If this is true, why would Butler and his agent wait until a week before training camp to inform Thibs? Seems like they would have told him earlier so Thibs had time to make it happen. Maybe, like many negotiations, waiting til bitter end creates sense of urgency and they think they hold more leverage as Thibs is desperate.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 14:12:56 GMT -6
Jimmy may be a bit delusional...
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 14:20:51 GMT -6
Oops...
brittrobson@brittrobson · Jul 3, 2018 If anyone believes Joe Cowley is an agenda-free, objective reporter, then they are a lousy judge of character. Ignore the bullshit. Butler, Thibs, Towns, Wiggins are together for the 2018-19 season. Everyone knows the rubber meets the road a year from now. Many Q answered by then
brittrobson@brittrobson Credit where credit is due. Joe Cowley was right about the Butler drama cleaving the team this season + I was wrong.
11:58 AM - Sep 19, 2018 · Minneapolis, MN
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Post by The Country Club on Sept 19, 2018 15:33:56 GMT -6
Nate: My bet: I think the trade demand will be public by the end of the day. The meeting being in LA and the idea that Jimmy wants his Bird rights next year while not being on a team with KAT limits the number of things that can happen. They can’t go into camp with the status quo. It will be a circus. There is a race to get the trade demand bit in print and everyone is angling for it. Strib, PiPress, Athletic, Shams, SI, Woj… I guess they could still try and get KAT and Butler on the same page in the next 5 days but that seems like a long shot. If this is true, why would Butler and his agent wait until a week before training camp to inform Thibs? Seems like they would have told him earlier so Thibs had time to make it happen. Maybe, like many negotiations, waiting til bitter end creates sense of urgency and they think they hold more leverage as Thibs is desperate. This was said in February: I'm going to guess that the contract is a bigger player here than chemistry in the locker room. And the Wolves (bleeped) up the offseason in figuring out how to manage a mess of a situation between KAT, Wiggins, and Butler around max deals for all 3. Not trading Wiggins when we had the chance was a real dumb, dumb move. As was sitting on Butler all offseason knowing he really wants to be paid.
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 15:56:21 GMT -6
Too bad Rackshaq isn't here to tell us how brilliant this all is by Thibs and how he's operating at levels that none of the rest of us can even see.
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Sept 19, 2018 16:01:11 GMT -6
What is he talking about “take care of him this summer”?
We offered the most we could, and he declined to wait for the rules to allow the bigger offer. I assume his agent explained this and he was aware of it.
In this context what does ‘take care of me mean’ ? Clear out players he doesn’t like?
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Post by levine on Sept 19, 2018 16:02:52 GMT -6
What is he talking about “take care of him this summer”? We offered the most we could, and he declined to wait for the rules to allow the bigger offer. I assume his agent explained this and he was aware of it. In this context what does ‘take care of me mean’ ? Clear out players he doesn’t like? Its obviously the agent trying to paint the Wolves as the bad guys in this situation.
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Sept 19, 2018 16:09:23 GMT -6
What is he talking about “take care of him this summer”? We offered the most we could, and he declined to wait for the rules to allow the bigger offer. I assume his agent explained this and he was aware of it. In this context what does ‘take care of me mean’ ? Clear out players he doesn’t like? Its obviously the agent trying to paint the Wolves as the bad guys in this situation. I dont follow. the wolves may deserve at least some blame, but what are they suggesting the wolves were supposed to do to take care of him?
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Post by The Country Club on Sept 19, 2018 16:13:26 GMT -6
In this context what does ‘take care of me mean’ ? Clear out players he doesn’t like? $$$$$ and probably unloading the guys that weren't bought in. I don't blame Butler for letting it be known his intentions. I blame a lot of this on the Wolves FO and Taylor. A lot of this could have been prevented...
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