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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 11:25:05 GMT -6
It's interesting how we can see these things differently. I listened to that Doogie podcast and I agree with Levine on this one. My impression was that Glen sees everything with rose colored glasses. Rome is burning and Glen is bingewatching House of Cards.
When Taylor says "that ownership should become involved during decisions that are “financial” impact, “culture” and for those that require a “change in direction”, all of those clearly apply right now. Yet Taylor seems to take a back seat and see how things play out.
He can't win. If he takes the reigns and kicks Thibs to the side, he'd be ripped for undermining the coach and GM and acting outside of his expertise. If he tries to paint a picture of organizational stability and control, he's portrayed as delusional and naive. He told Thibs to focus on coaching, told Layden to find a good deal, and is in communication with both. That should be the expectation for ownership. I don't see it that way. If he fires Thibs he will be wildly lauded 90% from across the entire state of MN. Fans will return and applaud him for making a brave, tough decision.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 11:32:51 GMT -6
It's interesting how we can see these things differently. I listened to that Doogie podcast and I agree with Levine on this one. My impression was that Glen sees everything with rose colored glasses. Rome is burning and Glen is bingewatching House of Cards.
When Taylor says "that ownership should become involved during decisions that are “financial” impact, “culture” and for those that require a “change in direction”, all of those clearly apply right now. Yet Taylor seems to take a back seat and see how things play out.
He can't win. If he takes the reigns and kicks Thibs to the side, he'd be ripped for undermining the coach and GM and acting outside of his expertise. If he tries to paint a picture of organizational stability and control, he's portrayed as delusional and naive. He told Thibs to focus on coaching, told Layden to find a good deal, and is in communication with both. That should be the expectation for ownership.
We can still have a good team. We have plenty of talent even without Jimmy. We just need a starting wing in return for him.
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Post by levine on Nov 9, 2018 11:34:15 GMT -6
He can't win. If he takes the reigns and kicks Thibs to the side, he'd be ripped for undermining the coach and GM and acting outside of his expertise. If he tries to paint a picture of organizational stability and control, he's portrayed as delusional and naive. He told Thibs to focus on coaching, told Layden to find a good deal, and is in communication with both. That should be the expectation for ownership. I don't think so. I believe Taylor would be applauded widely across the state for moving our team ahead. Once Thibs and Butler are gone people will start filling the arena again.
We can still have a good team. We have plenty of talent even without Jimmy. We just need a starting wing in return for him.
Do we? We're 4-8 right now and really bad at most things basketball.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 11:36:13 GMT -6
I don't think so. I believe Taylor would be applauded widely across the state for moving our team ahead. Once Thibs and Butler are gone people will start filling the arena again.
We can still have a good team. We have plenty of talent even without Jimmy. We just need a starting wing in return for him.
Do we? We're 4-8 right now and really bad at most things basketball. Sure. Get rid of Thibs and the malcontent and we're a better team.
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Post by cory on Nov 9, 2018 11:51:13 GMT -6
I don't think there is anyway for any fans to trust that there is any idea that Taylor, Thibs, or Layden have any control of the organization. There are 3 potential ways Glen comments could be looked at by me -
1) Glen has no clue what is going on with the NBA, how to manage the salary cap, or how contracts work and what will be available to spend. This absolutely fits with Glen's history and there is no real proof that he has ever had a good understanding of how the league works. In this scenario, Thibs and Layden are manipulating Glen at best and at worst they have no idea how the NBA works. Both are plausible.
2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history.
3) This is where I give a 5-10% chance that Thibs and Layden told Glen that he has to stop saying we will deal Butler because we lose all leverage and we need to make it seem like we will keep him. There is not a lot of proof that Glen would do this as he has always shot from the hip with comments but it is plausible and somewhat sensible. It could also be way for Thibs to manipulate the situation similarly to scenario 1 where he can string this out for as long as he can.
No scenario is good though. We are such an embarrassment of a professional sports organization. Glen needs to sell the team, we have no respect in the league from players or agents at this point.
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 9, 2018 12:04:32 GMT -6
On 1500ESPN‘s recent The Scoop Podcast, hosted by Darren Wolfson, Taylor was a recent guest. On the show, Taylor was asked when it becomes ownership’s role to step in and involve oneself in decision-making — not explicitly related to a Butler trade, but speaking more generally. Taylor, the majority owner of the Timberwolves since 1994, said that ownership should become involved during decisions that are “financial” impact, “culture” and for those that require a “change in direction.” If we go off that, Taylor, by not having facilitated a deal, must believe that the financial impact of Butler’s presence with the team is not harsh. He also must feel that the culture has not been shaken to the degree that many on the outside perceive it to be. And together, Taylor must believe the sum of those parts do not justify a change in direction. Those are subjective lines to be drawn by Taylor and therefore are not naive. What is naive is the alternative to trading Butler that Taylor offered during his interview with Wolfson. Here is the full quote: “That’s the alternative,” said Taylor when asked if he could see the team keeping Butler beyond the trade deadline and into free agency next summer. “You say, ‘well if [an acceptable offer] never happens, I guess we’ll never get a deal and Jimmy will play out his contract with us and become a free agent at the end of the year.’
“And then, ‘what’s our alternatives?’ We’ll have a bunch of money in salary to go out and get a free agent ourselves. So, I mean, it isn’t like we don’t have alternatives. We do.”
That statement is one of three things: 1.) naive 2.) misinformed 3.) propaganda.
The Wolves will not have a bunch of money to pursue free agents themselves if Butler simply walks in free agency. That’s not how it works. In fact, as the roster currently stands, the team will have almost no salary cap space to go out and pursue any free agents this summer.zonecoverage.com/2018/timberwolves/the-naivety-of-the-jimmy-butler-holding-pattern/I agree to the point where I'm wondering if Glen is physically ok. I hope there is nothing wrong but honestly it boggles the mind how he cant be doing something about the mess that this team is in. His pocket book is being affected as I read that so far they've already had 2 nights of less than 10k of people in the stands already this year. Last year they didnt have any.
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 9, 2018 12:08:31 GMT -6
I don't think there is anyway for any fans to trust that there is any idea that Taylor, Thibs, or Layden have any control of the organization. There are 3 potential ways Glen comments could be looked at by me - 1) Glen has no clue what is going on with the NBA, how to manage the salary cap, or how contracts work and what will be available to spend. This absolutely fits with Glen's history and there is no real proof that he has ever had a good understanding of how the league works. In this scenario, Thibs and Layden are manipulating Glen at best and at worst they have no idea how the NBA works. Both are plausible. 2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history. 3) This is where I give a 5-10% chance that Thibs and Layden told Glen that he has to stop saying we will deal Butler because we lose all leverage and we need to make it seem like we will keep him. There is not a lot of proof that Glen would do this as he has always shot from the hip with comments but it is plausible and somewhat sensible. It could also be way for Thibs to manipulate the situation similarly to scenario 1 where he can string this out for as long as he can. No scenario is good though. We are such an embarrassment of a professional sports organization. Glen needs to sell the team, we have no respect in the league from players or agents at this point. Re: bolded. While I dont disagree...there is a part of me that was impressed with Kahns ability to make the deals necessary to do that and to have the vision to do so. Yes he got rid of alot of talent he shoudlnt have during that little fiasco. But just the fact that he was able to pull it off and get what he wanted was impressive. As bad as he was as a GM, I think that there is a place for a guy like him in an organization where he could deal with contracts and things like figuring out ways to make deals work.
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Post by levine on Nov 9, 2018 12:19:16 GMT -6
I don't think there is anyway for any fans to trust that there is any idea that Taylor, Thibs, or Layden have any control of the organization. There are 3 potential ways Glen comments could be looked at by me - 1) Glen has no clue what is going on with the NBA, how to manage the salary cap, or how contracts work and what will be available to spend. This absolutely fits with Glen's history and there is no real proof that he has ever had a good understanding of how the league works. In this scenario, Thibs and Layden are manipulating Glen at best and at worst they have no idea how the NBA works. Both are plausible. 2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history. 3) This is where I give a 5-10% chance that Thibs and Layden told Glen that he has to stop saying we will deal Butler because we lose all leverage and we need to make it seem like we will keep him. There is not a lot of proof that Glen would do this as he has always shot from the hip with comments but it is plausible and somewhat sensible. It could also be way for Thibs to manipulate the situation similarly to scenario 1 where he can string this out for as long as he can. No scenario is good though. We are such an embarrassment of a professional sports organization. Glen needs to sell the team, we have no respect in the league from players or agents at this point. Re: bolded. While I dont disagree...there is a part of me that was impressed with Kahns ability to make the deals necessary to do that and to have the vision to do so. Yes he got rid of alot of talent he shoudlnt have during that little fiasco. But just the fact that he was able to pull it off and get what he wanted was impressive. As bad as he was as a GM, I think that there is a place for a guy like him in an organization where he could deal with contracts and things like figuring out ways to make deals work. They literally changed the rules about selling draft picks after that fiasco.
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salty
Full Member
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Post by salty on Nov 9, 2018 13:01:25 GMT -6
2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history. Oh, it is #2 for sure.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 9, 2018 13:17:00 GMT -6
On 1500ESPN‘s recent The Scoop Podcast, hosted by Darren Wolfson, Taylor was a recent guest. On the show, Taylor was asked when it becomes ownership’s role to step in and involve oneself in decision-making — not explicitly related to a Butler trade, but speaking more generally. Taylor, the majority owner of the Timberwolves since 1994, said that ownership should become involved during decisions that are “financial” impact, “culture” and for those that require a “change in direction.” If we go off that, Taylor, by not having facilitated a deal, must believe that the financial impact of Butler’s presence with the team is not harsh. He also must feel that the culture has not been shaken to the degree that many on the outside perceive it to be. And together, Taylor must believe the sum of those parts do not justify a change in direction. Those are subjective lines to be drawn by Taylor and therefore are not naive. What is naive is the alternative to trading Butler that Taylor offered during his interview with Wolfson. Here is the full quote: “That’s the alternative,” said Taylor when asked if he could see the team keeping Butler beyond the trade deadline and into free agency next summer. “You say, ‘well if [an acceptable offer] never happens, I guess we’ll never get a deal and Jimmy will play out his contract with us and become a free agent at the end of the year.’
“And then, ‘what’s our alternatives?’ We’ll have a bunch of money in salary to go out and get a free agent ourselves. So, I mean, it isn’t like we don’t have alternatives. We do.”
That statement is one of three things: 1.) naive 2.) misinformed 3.) propaganda.
The Wolves will not have a bunch of money to pursue free agents themselves if Butler simply walks in free agency. That’s not how it works. In fact, as the roster currently stands, the team will have almost no salary cap space to go out and pursue any free agents this summer.zonecoverage.com/2018/timberwolves/the-naivety-of-the-jimmy-butler-holding-pattern/I agree to the point where I'm wondering if Glen is physically ok. I hope there is nothing wrong but honestly it boggles the mind how he cant be doing something about the mess that this team is in. His pocket book is being affected as I read that so far they've already had 2 nights of less than 10k of people in the stands already this year. Last year they didnt have any. He's 77. I think the Simon (Indiana) and Reinsdorf are the only ones that are older at this point. I haven't heard anything about his health but given I know my parents are of similar age and I know where they're at physically and mentally, age-related stuff can't be discounted completely.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 20:02:52 GMT -6
He can't win. If he takes the reigns and kicks Thibs to the side, he'd be ripped for undermining the coach and GM and acting outside of his expertise. If he tries to paint a picture of organizational stability and control, he's portrayed as delusional and naive. He told Thibs to focus on coaching, told Layden to find a good deal, and is in communication with both. That should be the expectation for ownership. I don't see it that way. If he fires Thibs he will be wildly lauded 90% from across the entire state of MN. Fans will return and applaud him for making a brave, tough decision. I'm not talking about firing him, dude. If he fires him it is a whole new narrative. But he seems committed to him at this point, so why not analyze the situation based on reality instead of "what-if's?" If he takes unilateral control of the situation while he still has Thibs and Layden around he will get even more heat than he already has; he was ripped by local and national media alike for even saying that Butler was available in a trade.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 20:37:45 GMT -6
2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history. Oh, it is #2 for sure. Of course it's #2!!
He can bend a penny double. Glen never considers he bought the team 23 years ago and it's now worth 15 times more than what he paid for it. I'ts now worth 975 million more than he paid for it. Yet, he can't bring himself to spend the 25 million buy out Thibs.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 20:44:47 GMT -6
Do we? We're 4-8 right now and really bad at most things basketball. Sure. Get rid of Thibs and the malcontent and we're a better team. Brilliant. Maybe you should be the owner.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 20:52:48 GMT -6
2) Glen saying this is almost a tacit admission that he will never fire Thibs with the amount of money he has left to pay him. This is a guy who told David Kahn he could not fire Rambis without making the money work. Kahn proceeded to have the most embarrassing draft that I have ever witnessed by any professional sports organization where he sold off numerous picks to pay off Rambis' contract. Glen does not like to squander money if he doesn't have to but he can't just outright say that. Even if Jimmy walks as a free agent and we receive nothing in return, I believe Thibs being fired is no better than a 50/50 proposition. Think of the leash he gave McHale and the evidence of him not squandering money on bad contracts unless he was forced to through buyouts or other mismanaged assets over his history. Oh, it is #2 for sure. Yep, without a doubt. The Wolves are an ancillary business for the billionaire Glen Taylor. He likely had a plan to keep Thibs for x# of years and will do just that, regardless of how fans clamor for action. The lack of butts in the seats may get his attention, but it will take a lot of pressure for him to fire Thibs and pay both him and another head coach. And I don't know that I disagree with him. If Butler hadn't demanded this trade we'd probably be talking about how Thibs seems to finally be opening up his rotation, playing different schemes on defense, and even mixing up the offense more this year (i.e. seeing glimmers of hope). Unfortunately, Butler's selfishness has thrown everything into disarray.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 20:56:09 GMT -6
Sure. Get rid of Thibs and the malcontent and we're a better team. Brilliant. Maybe you should be the owner. Boognish, do you love the job Thibs and Taylor are doing?
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 21:03:46 GMT -6
Yep, without a doubt. The Wolves are an ancillary business for the billionaire Glen Taylor. He likely had a plan to keep Thibs for x# of years and will do just that, regardless of how fans clamor for action. The lack of butts in the seats may get his attention, but it will take a lot of pressure for him to fire Thibs and pay both him and another head coach. And I don't know that I disagree with him. If Butler hadn't demanded this trade we'd probably be talking about how Thibs seems to finally be opening up his rotation, playing different schemes on defense, and even mixing up the offense more this year (i.e. seeing glimmers of hope). Unfortunately, Butler's selfishness has thrown everything into disarray. I think I can mostly agree with that. Thibs has changed some things on offense. I'm not seeing much change on defense though. He seems to be barking less and letting the players play.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 21:05:40 GMT -6
Brilliant. Maybe you should be the owner. Boognish, do you love the job Thibs and Taylor are doing? I hate them both but they are still employees so why don't we focus on the situation as it exists vs. our dream scenario? The conversation is about Glen's interaction in this scenario, along with his POBO and GM, who are both making big bucks to do their jobs. Until I see us let Butler walk with no trade done, I will continue to believe that Glen and everyone involved understands that Butler wants to leave and that it would be best for the franchise to get something for him before he leaves. Anyone who believes differently has an agenda, IMHO.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 10, 2018 9:41:39 GMT -6
I was bored so I put together a four team deal with HOU, CHA, and WSH
HOU: Butler CHA: Wiggins, Mahinmi, Knight, 1st in '21 and '25 from HOU, 2nd in '20 and '22 from MIN WSH: Batum, Dieng, 1st in '25 from CHA MIN: Porter, Chriss, Marvin Williams, Biyombo, 1sts in '19 and '23 from HOU, 2nd from WSH in '25
M.O. - We reboot by unloading Butler *and* Wiggins in one shot, using the HOU trade and the plethora of picks as our avenue to do this.
Charlotte gets out of Batum's contract and gets some salary relief by getting Knight.
Washington gets Porter out of the lockerroom and picks up a low usage vet who will probably calm the team down a bit in Batum. The 2025 first in HOU's arsenal gets sent to them or to Charlotte (and Charlotte kicks theirs over). Washington also gets Dieng in the deal.
Houston gets Butler.
While we get bad contracts coming back in Porter and Biyombo, they are shorter in length than Wiggins. We give up 2 1sts from HOU to make that happen but we clear the deck of the albatross on the roster.
Resulting look is less bad:
PG - Teague/Tyus SG - Rose/Okogie SF - Porter/Marvin Williams/Nunnally PF - Taj/Marvin/Tolliver, Chriss C - KAT/Biyombo
The Wolves *could* theoretically pawn Taj off for a shooting guard (Courtney Lee?) if needed.
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Post by pagliatti on Nov 10, 2018 11:01:38 GMT -6
Boognish, do you love the job Thibs and Taylor are doing? I hate them both but they are still employees so why don't we focus on the situation as it exists vs. our dream scenario? The conversation is about Glen's interaction in this scenario, along with his POBO and GM, who are both making big bucks to do their jobs. Until I see us let Butler walk with no trade done, I will continue to believe that Glen and everyone involved understands that Butler wants to leave and that it would be best for the franchise to get something for him before he leaves. Anyone who believes differently has an agenda, IMHO. There is also the chance that Thibs has been telling Glen things like they should go in his opinion and Glen is grateful for him bending his ways to fit the jewels of the crown so now he has to pay some loyalty back. It is possible that indoors Thibs stated their youngs were overrated yet he took the challenge to work with them instead of using all of them as trade bait. When they got paid Jimmy got furious (fact). He just doesn't see the building blocks for development, there are core issues so to speak (opinion). So he has to play with developing guys who don't play his brand of basketball and get more dough than him. Coach betrayed me. Now Thibs knows the appreciation of Glen is related to keeping the faith on those young dudes and the only way to change things is to get Glen out of that mindset. He might even show him a 30 y/o with one foot out of the league filling the sheet under the right scenario. If the young guys develop good, if they look terrible, good. Whatever it takes to destroy the silver spoon. There is an issue with KAT/Wiggins. Thibs probably likes Wiggins better as he is easier to hide in a successful scheme. Makes open shots at a decent rate, long for a SG, not a plus but not a hideous defender in the right scenario. KAT is way trickier because talent is perceived to be in another tier but you have to give up your backbone to reap the rewards. Not in the same league as some walking disasters but precisely those flaws would have KAT using more chances that someone who gets inmediately discarded. It is not as much him being the lousiest defender ever as his game being predicated so far from what you would expect from your center. There are guys out there with half a dozen tasks- roll to the basket, box out, set screens-that are repeated to perfection and then you have this guy doing much more but at the same time not doing enough at some basic tasks. Variety looks great in the TV but sufficiency is a lot more attractive for teammates, they need to know what to expect from every play: a monster block one play and an uncontested layup in a copycat play, just doesn't fly. For Glen KAT is untouchable as probably too many people told him so and Thibs is untouchable because cleaning house is too difficult atm- too many people should have to go in the FO and many players would also want out of the mess- and also Thibs got far away from his own preferences to make stuff fit. To the point that he seems to have ten years more than some months ago, to the point that he has been sort of left in the woods by a guy who owes him a career; enough for Glen to take his time and make his mind. Anyway I don't feel much pity for Tom. You might torture the playbook to fit several HoFers-and most of the time they fit in whatever you paint in the chalkboard- every other guy should earn the stripes.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Nov 10, 2018 11:20:45 GMT -6
I was bored so I put together a four team deal with HOU, CHA, and WSH HOU: Butler CHA: Wiggins, Mahinmi, Knight, 1st in '21 and '25 from HOU, 2nd in '20 and '22 from MIN WSH: Batum, Dieng, 1st in '25 from CHA MIN: Porter, Chriss, Marvin Williams, Biyombo, 1sts in '19 and '23 from HOU, 2nd from WSH in '25 M.O. - We reboot by unloading Butler *and* Wiggins in one shot, using the HOU trade and the plethora of picks as our avenue to do this. Charlotte gets out of Batum's contract and gets some salary relief by getting Knight. Washington gets Porter out of the lockerroom and picks up a low usage vet who will probably calm the team down a bit in Batum. The 2025 first in HOU's arsenal gets sent to them or to Charlotte (and Charlotte kicks theirs over). Washington also gets Dieng in the deal. Houston gets Butler. While we get bad contracts coming back in Porter and Biyombo, they are shorter in length than Wiggins. We give up 2 1sts from HOU to make that happen but we clear the deck of the albatross on the roster. Resulting look is less bad: PG - Teague/Tyus SG - Rose/Okogie SF - Porter/Marvin Williams/Nunnally PF - Taj/Marvin/Tolliver, Chriss C - KAT/Biyombo The Wolves *could* theoretically pawn Taj off for a shooting guard (Courtney Lee?) if needed. To bad we don't have active FO that would look for something like this. Plus we really really really need to get rid of Teague and Taj and get some real players.
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