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Post by The Country Club on Sept 19, 2018 13:12:20 GMT -6
I'm going back to my hot take from May on the old site: www.mnsportsfans.com/forum/showthread.php/91453-The-Country-Club-s-Offseason-Blueprint-Version-1-0We can't do any of the moves that I outlined given the box Butler has put the franchise in but it's absolutely clear that Thibs can't touch anything else with this team going forward. Get David Griffin in here now. Start working the pipeline for David Blatt for next year unless he wants to jump from Greece with a week left and try to make chicken salad in the NBA. At this point, it's completely time to scorch earth the FO.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Sept 19, 2018 14:43:06 GMT -6
FO has to go. Fortunately we do have some options.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 19, 2018 19:01:47 GMT -6
I dont mind that idea. I'd consider him or Hinkie.
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Post by cory on Sept 20, 2018 8:59:41 GMT -6
I dont mind that idea. I'd consider him or Hinkie. Yes, no reason not to do it at this point. I'm not sure who could be a stand in coach for a year. Could Blatt come over? It should not be Ryan. Sorry to him and I hope he has a long career in the league but that would be the wrong move right now. A great article on why Thibs has to go - www.awolfamongwolves.com/2018/09/without-jimmy-there-can-be-no-thibs/
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Post by boognish on Sept 21, 2018 8:49:48 GMT -6
How can fans put pressure on Taylor? Does he have a social media presence? Can we start a letter campaign? He needs to understand that the fan base isn't happy with this situation at all, and that many of us believe that most of the blame falls on Thibs's handling of the team.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 21, 2018 11:01:49 GMT -6
How can fans put pressure on Taylor? Does he have a social media presence? Can we start a letter campaign? He needs to understand that the fan base isn't happy with this situation at all, and that many of us believe that most of the blame falls on Thibs's handling of the team. Merciless booing of Thibs at the games. Taylor seems like the type that would be affected by something like that.
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Post by levine on Sept 21, 2018 11:12:48 GMT -6
How can fans put pressure on Taylor? Does he have a social media presence? Can we start a letter campaign? He needs to understand that the fan base isn't happy with this situation at all, and that many of us believe that most of the blame falls on Thibs's handling of the team. Merciless booing of Thibs at the games. Taylor seems like the type that would be affected by something like that. On the other hand, it might make it harder for Glen and Becky to hear Thibs swearing all game long...
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Post by djwhirly on Sept 21, 2018 11:45:05 GMT -6
Just cancel your season tickets and do not attend any games until Thibs and Butler are both in the horizon!
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 21, 2018 14:53:28 GMT -6
Just cancel your season tickets and do not attend any games until Thibs and Butler are both in the horizon!
I would love to cancel my tickets, but they require you to renew in Spring. They're already paid for!
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Post by boognish on Sept 21, 2018 19:34:05 GMT -6
Just cancel your season tickets and do not attend any games until Thibs and Butler are both in the horizon!
Unfortunately, I live in Idaho now and can't boo directly and can't cancel tickets that I don't have. I want to write a heartfelt letter to Taylor letting him know that it is time to move on. Likely useless, but it would be cathartic for me. :)
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Post by Nick K on Sept 21, 2018 21:49:20 GMT -6
Looks like the days of POBO, GM, and Head Coach all rolled into one are done for good. Failed experiment.
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Post by wunderwolf on Sept 22, 2018 6:53:19 GMT -6
Thibs clearly gone soon, and I have a feeling it's going to be McHale and Jim Pete running show within a week.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 22, 2018 7:19:41 GMT -6
Thibs clearly gone soon, and I have a feeling it's going to be McHale and Jim Pete running show within a week. Please.....no McHale! Haven't we had enough?
I love Jim Pete and trust him in a pinch.
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Post by sparlimb on Sept 22, 2018 7:28:24 GMT -6
Thibs clearly gone soon, and I have a feeling it's going to be McHale and Jim Pete running show within a week. What a shit show this all turned out to be. How would you like to be Thibs (whether he's right or wrong). He decides as GM how to handle this and his boss says, don't listen to him, we're open for trades. You guys all seem to hate Thibs, but the cancer here is Taylor. He has no clue how to run a professional sports organization and it has shown for a very long time. Look at the Vikings. Their ownership group put competent people in charge and basically disappear into the background. I agree, Thibs is gone, probably this weekend. Or at least I know I wouldn't keep working for an owner who stabs me in the back. What a way to start the year...
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 22, 2018 8:24:22 GMT -6
Thibs clearly gone soon, and I have a feeling it's going to be McHale and Jim Pete running show within a week. What a shit show this all turned out to be. How would you like to be Thibs (whether he's right or wrong). He decides as GM how to handle this and his boss says, don't listen to him, we're open for trades. You guys all seem to hate Thibs, but the cancer here is Taylor. He has no clue how to run a professional sports organization and it has shown for a very long time. Look at the Vikings. Their ownership group put competent people in charge and basically disappear into the background. I agree, Thibs is gone, probably this weekend. Or at least I know I wouldn't keep working for an owner who stabs me in the back. What a way to start the year... Dude, Thibs put himself in this position....not Taylor. Taylor wasnt the one ignoring requests from Jimmy as early as last June, or ignoring KAT's desire to speak with management about what was going on. This was strictly Thibs doing his best ostrich impersonation and believing that if he could just get the team to camp and start the season "winning would cure everything". HE's the same guy who couldnt see that he had a fractured team last year when they were miserable playing together....and he did nothing. THis is 100% on Thibs. I agree that it would suck if your boss was going over your head on your job...but if your failing at your job...what else can the owner do? Does anyone really have any doubt that if Thibs were in complete control with no checks and balances that he'd trade off KAT and Wiggins for veterans and build around Jimmy? He absolutely would do that...and thats why he has to go. And on that subject, Glen is not without fault in this whole thing but this is a situation where even when he did the right thing...it turned out to be the wrong thing. We can go back to when Thibs was hired and "most" fans (and scribes) thought that this was a great and decisive move by Taylor. He acted quickly and spent the money to bring in what was supposed to be the best coach available. The down side to this whole mess is if this now scars Glen from doing the right thing in the future. That said...he needs to make the move on Thibs now before training camp opens. I dont think he will though...and that would be entirely on Glen.
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Post by boognish on Sept 22, 2018 8:49:50 GMT -6
What a shit show this all turned out to be. How would you like to be Thibs (whether he's right or wrong). He decides as GM how to handle this and his boss says, don't listen to him, we're open for trades. You guys all seem to hate Thibs, but the cancer here is Taylor. He has no clue how to run a professional sports organization and it has shown for a very long time. Look at the Vikings. Their ownership group put competent people in charge and basically disappear into the background. I agree, Thibs is gone, probably this weekend. Or at least I know I wouldn't keep working for an owner who stabs me in the back. What a way to start the year... Dude, Thibs put himself in this position....not Taylor. Taylor wasnt the one ignoring requests from Jimmy as early as last June, or ignoring KAT's desire to speak with management about what was going on. This was strictly Thibs doing his best ostrich impersonation and believing that if he could just get the team to camp and start the season "winning would cure everything". HE's the same guy who couldnt see that he had a fractured team last year when they were miserable playing together....and he did nothing. THis is 100% on Thibs. I agree that it would suck if your boss was going over your head on your job...but if your failing at your job...what else can the owner do? Does anyone really have any doubt that if Thibs were in complete control with no checks and balances that he'd trade off KAT and Wiggins for veterans and build around Jimmy? He absolutely would do that...and thats why he has to go. And on that subject, Glen is not without fault in this whole thing but this is a situation where even when he did the right thing...it turned out to be the wrong thing. We can go back to when Thibs was hired and "most" fans (and scribes) thought that this was a great and decisive move by Taylor. He acted quickly and spent the money to bring in what was supposed to be the best coach available. The down side to this whole mess is if this now scars Glen from doing the right thing in the future. That said...he needs to make the move on Thibs now before training camp opens. I dont think he will though...and that would be entirely on Glen. I'm with you. Glen went against his instincts to hire an outside firm who recommended a coach that was widely seen as the best available. Glen hired him and handed over the keys to the castle, even though you know that their personalities did not mesh whatsoever. He put up with the constant yelling on the side of the court, the slow degradation of team morale, and the transformation of a young team with a bright future into a team that was a pale reflection of a Bulls team from another decade. If I were Taylor, I'd say that enough is enough and clean house, bring in new staff who have a positive vibe and try to win back the hearts of the players and the fans in MN.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 22, 2018 11:35:28 GMT -6
Dude, Thibs put himself in this position....not Taylor. Taylor wasnt the one ignoring requests from Jimmy as early as last June, or ignoring KAT's desire to speak with management about what was going on. This was strictly Thibs doing his best ostrich impersonation and believing that if he could just get the team to camp and start the season "winning would cure everything". HE's the same guy who couldnt see that he had a fractured team last year when they were miserable playing together....and he did nothing. THis is 100% on Thibs. I agree that it would suck if your boss was going over your head on your job...but if your failing at your job...what else can the owner do? Does anyone really have any doubt that if Thibs were in complete control with no checks and balances that he'd trade off KAT and Wiggins for veterans and build around Jimmy? He absolutely would do that...and thats why he has to go. And on that subject, Glen is not without fault in this whole thing but this is a situation where even when he did the right thing...it turned out to be the wrong thing. We can go back to when Thibs was hired and "most" fans (and scribes) thought that this was a great and decisive move by Taylor. He acted quickly and spent the money to bring in what was supposed to be the best coach available. The down side to this whole mess is if this now scars Glen from doing the right thing in the future. That said...he needs to make the move on Thibs now before training camp opens. I dont think he will though...and that would be entirely on Glen. I'm with you. Glen went against his instincts to hire an outside firm who recommended a coach that was widely seen as the best available. Glen hired him and handed over the keys to the castle, even though you know that their personalities did not mesh whatsoever. He put up with the constant yelling on the side of the court, the slow degradation of team morale, and the transformation of a young team with a bright future into a team that was a pale reflection of a Bulls team from another decade. If I were Taylor, I'd say that enough is enough and clean house, bring in new staff who have a positive vibe and try to win back the hearts of the players and the fans in MN. I agree kingxman and boognish. Taylor went out on a limb with Thibs and was wrong as were most of us. I was against Thibs hiring but at the end I acquiesced and went all in on the guy. I knew by Feb 2017 that Thibs was absolutely the wrong guy for us. I will always remember the soulless barking on the sidelines. The poor use of timeouts. The overuse of the starters and his inability to get the young guys to buy in. My only criticism of Taylor is he didn't fire Thibs last April.
It appears Taylor is doing the right thing now. If I see Thibs at media day I'll be back swearing a blue streak at Taylor.
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Post by The Country Club on Sept 22, 2018 14:07:29 GMT -6
Taylor didn't need to bring Thibs in despite better qualified people out there (including in-house in Mitchell and Newton).
Taylor didn't need to max Wiggins with a pinky swear promise that he'll play harder (and then wiggins dogged it all season).
Taylor could have booted Thibs at the end of the playoffs when the reports of a cancerous culture were firing off from what is quite possibly the most lapdoggish media in the country.
He didn't.
Taylor could have booted Thibs Thursday or Friday when Thibs made it clear he was going to not take calls on Butler.
He didn't.
It is on the owner.
If Thibs isn't gone by Monday morning I may be done with this team. I'll put up with a lot of crap in a sports franchise. Taylor's been inept to flat out incompetent for the last 20 years of his ownership.
He needs to step up and own this.
The owner is the problem because at the end of the day...it ends with him.
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Post by The Country Club on Oct 13, 2018 4:34:54 GMT -6
Thibs clearly gone soon, and I have a feeling it's going to be McHale and Jim Pete running show within a week. Please.....no McHale! Haven't we had enough?
I love Jim Pete and trust him in a pinch.
For a year to calm the organization down? I'd take McHale as a coach and a stopgap. He's not a terrible coach from motivating guys to play standpoint. I don't want him long-term but as a "let's reboot the franchise and get the Thibs sh*t out of the system", I'd rather someone not connected to this franchise at present step in that role.
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Post by kingsxman on Oct 13, 2018 8:35:47 GMT -6
Please.....no McHale! Haven't we had enough?
I love Jim Pete and trust him in a pinch.
For a year to calm the organization down? I'd take McHale as a coach and a stopgap. He's not a terrible coach from motivating guys to play standpoint. I don't want him long-term but as a "let's reboot the franchise and get the Thibs sh*t out of the system", I'd rather someone not connected to this franchise at present step in that role. honestly, I'd take McHale as a coach instead of anyone on the staff. But I'd rather they did something else.
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Post by The Country Club on Oct 13, 2018 8:52:02 GMT -6
For a year to calm the organization down? I'd take McHale as a coach and a stopgap. He's not a terrible coach from motivating guys to play standpoint. I don't want him long-term but as a "let's reboot the franchise and get the Thibs sh*t out of the system", I'd rather someone not connected to this franchise at present step in that role. honestly, I'd take McHale as a coach instead of anyone on the staff. But I'd rather they did something else. I don't think we'll be able to poach an assistant off of anyone at this point given the season is starting so it's either an ex-coach or a guy in Europe like Blatt. Among ex-coaches that are sitting on the sideline and not (to my knowledge) doing anything outside of TV, you're looking at George Karl, Jason Kidd, Byron Scott, Frank Vogel, Mark Jackson, the Van Gundy bros, Doug Collins, Mo Cheeks, Jeff Hornacek, Vinny Del Negro, and a cast of others. None of them right now inspire me and each have baggage or tarnish (Vogel, Hornacek) and wouldn't get any legit cred with the roster. Jeff Van Gundy is essentially a softer form of Thibs. Jackson is toxic. Karl *may* work but it would be a high risk move. Not even sure he wants one more rodeo and especially with the other form of "hell" given what went down in Sacramento. We're probably more poorly run right now than the Kings. I'm not sure what other decent options there are. Promotion from within keeps some level of "Thibsdom" on the roster or puts a total neophyte (Ryan) in as coach. Layden may dial up Jeff Hornacek given the Jazz and Midwest (played at Iowa State) connection but that's hardly going to inspire anyone and probably doesn't end up being a good fix long term. That leaves you McHale for a year (which I think as a favor to Taylor he may be willing to do) or hope you can get a guy in Europe. Had this been done in May it would have been a lot easier to get someone.
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Post by pagliatti on Oct 13, 2018 9:47:28 GMT -6
Taylor didn't need to bring Thibs in despite better qualified people out there (including in-house in Mitchell and Newton). Taylor didn't need to max Wiggins with a pinky swear promise that he'll play harder (and then wiggins dogged it all season). Taylor could have booted Thibs at the end of the playoffs when the reports of a cancerous culture were firing off from what is quite possibly the most lapdoggish media in the country. He didn't. Taylor could have booted Thibs Thursday or Friday when Thibs made it clear he was going to not take calls on Butler. He didn't. It is on the owner. If Thibs isn't gone by Monday morning I may be done with this team. I'll put up with a lot of crap in a sports franchise. Taylor's been inept to flat out incompetent for the last 20 years of his ownership. He needs to step up and own this. The owner is the problem because at the end of the day...it ends with him. Completely agree that it is on the owner but I would add a main reason, lack of flexibility for their FO/coaches. You don't give 24 million dollars and full powers to Thibs only to limit those powers later. A POBO should have carte blanche to trade prime Jordan and two unprotected 1st for supermaxed Justin Reed, you just judge where he gets, not how he gets there. It is the point to give someone a dual role. Some months ago Woj said something in the vein that Taylor would cut the whole FO before trading KAT which is a not promising sign when it comes to building something. Well, if I'm the guy making some millions and to get the money I have to go against my principles, then so be it. My boss lied to me at the face so I would activate "check collecting mode". But there is too much unknown to determine who is to blame, I just blame the owner because my guts tell me he sold Thibs on fully being in the "I want to win" bandwagon just to tell him later that there are some buts involved. You might castrate your worker, it happens, but he won't put much of a fight with his hands wrapped. Now if Thibs remained quiet when the young guys got maxed with an internal hope to convince Glen to move them if/when needed then that's also quite bad. Those FO guys are out there fighting for every inch to make their teams better. In MN there is always something weird going on that has the management between a rock and a hard place, too much players grooming- note how you can tell most teams could make almost anybody available in the right trade but MN wouldn't move Big Al, KLove, KAT and the list goes on- and a disdain for selected evident flaws. Of course some proven vets going through this circus will remain full pro for awhile but they would also want out asap. Everybody blames Jimmy and Jimmy is to be blamed to some degree but a coach that needs to deal with three maxes who need to play with that hefty contracts and a C backup on another albatross? A terrible position to be in; I would blame the POBO if I hadn't the vibe of Glen getting involved, let's see whether Thibs gets to explain the situation after his departure.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Oct 13, 2018 9:51:02 GMT -6
honestly, I'd take McHale as a coach instead of anyone on the staff. But I'd rather they did something else. I don't think we'll be able to poach an assistant off of anyone at this point given the season is starting so it's either an ex-coach or a guy in Europe like Blatt. Among ex-coaches that are sitting on the sideline and not (to my knowledge) doing anything outside of TV, you're looking at George Karl, Jason Kidd, Byron Scott, Frank Vogel, Mark Jackson, the Van Gundy bros, Doug Collins, Mo Cheeks, Jeff Hornacek, Vinny Del Negro, and a cast of others. None of them right now inspire me and each have baggage or tarnish (Vogel, Hornacek) and wouldn't get any legit cred with the roster. Jeff Van Gundy is essentially a softer form of Thibs. Jackson is toxic. Karl *may* work but it would be a high risk move. Not even sure he wants one more rodeo and especially with the other form of "hell" given what went down in Sacramento. We're probably more poorly run right now than the Kings. I'm not sure what other decent options there are. Promotion from within keeps some level of "Thibsdom" on the roster or puts a total neophyte (Ryan) in as coach. Layden may dial up Jeff Hornacek given the Jazz and Midwest (played at Iowa State) connection but that's hardly going to inspire anyone and probably doesn't end up being a good fix long term. That leaves you McHale for a year (which I think as a favor to Taylor he may be willing to do) or hope you can get a guy in Europe. Had this been done in May it would have been a lot easier to get someone. Del Negro or Hornacek. Either one would be ideal. Both have done well with limited resources. Getting their team of assistants would be interesting. Sikma would be a desire to pull in to work with the big guys. He's not even a coach with the Raptors and just a consultant. Should be a good person to pull to the team.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 13, 2018 10:11:23 GMT -6
For a year to calm the organization down? I'd take McHale as a coach and a stopgap. He's not a terrible coach from motivating guys to play standpoint. I don't want him long-term but as a "let's reboot the franchise and get the Thibs sh*t out of the system", I'd rather someone not connected to this franchise at present step in that role. honestly, I'd take McHale as a coach instead of anyone on the staff. But I'd rather they did something else. When I said please no McHale that was for GM. I wouldn't be against McHale as a stop gap coach. I do think we need to hire a bright younger up and comer as our next HC.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 13, 2018 10:33:18 GMT -6
honestly, I'd take McHale as a coach instead of anyone on the staff. But I'd rather they did something else. I don't think we'll be able to poach an assistant off of anyone at this point given the season is starting so it's either an ex-coach or a guy in Europe like Blatt. Among ex-coaches that are sitting on the sideline and not (to my knowledge) doing anything outside of TV, you're looking at George Karl, Jason Kidd, Byron Scott, Frank Vogel, Mark Jackson, the Van Gundy bros, Doug Collins, Mo Cheeks, Jeff Hornacek, Vinny Del Negro, and a cast of others. None of them right now inspire me and each have baggage or tarnish (Vogel, Hornacek) and wouldn't get any legit cred with the roster. Jeff Van Gundy is essentially a softer form of Thibs. Jackson is toxic. Karl *may* work but it would be a high risk move. Not even sure he wants one more rodeo and especially with the other form of "hell" given what went down in Sacramento. We're probably more poorly run right now than the Kings. I'm not sure what other decent options there are. Promotion from within keeps some level of "Thibsdom" on the roster or puts a total neophyte (Ryan) in as coach. Layden may dial up Jeff Hornacek given the Jazz and Midwest (played at Iowa State) connection but that's hardly going to inspire anyone and probably doesn't end up being a good fix long term. That leaves you McHale for a year (which I think as a favor to Taylor he may be willing to do) or hope you can get a guy in Europe. Had this been done in May it would have been a lot easier to get someone. Everyone of those guys are old-style coaches so I'd pass. Hornacek less so. Hornacek might be decent. The assistants are far less important.
Levine would disagree but I'd even throw Saunders out there and keep the assistants. It would be easy and keep continuity. If it doesn't work you can always move him back. You just have to have a scheme the players buy into. The players have to look forward to coming to work everyday. After all, the players play. Coach to their strengths. Give Towns the most shots, Wigs the 2nd most, Teague the 3rd etc. Focus on ball movement, 3pt shots and flow.
Let's face it, even if we got J Rich we will battle for a playoff spot and 50/50 we get it. The odds of getting J Rich are less now but it could still happen.
I hate to say it but Thibs will stay. If Glen hasn't fired him by now he probably won't. I have no confidence in Taylor doing the right thing because he has too many dollar signs floating in his head. That's an example of making a bad decision for the wrong reason. Sometimes you have to eat the loss. Consider it a sunk cost.
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