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Post by Nick K on Sept 26, 2018 22:39:31 GMT -6
Dane Moore @danemoorenba
At day one of training camp, the Wolves ran defensive drills that “switched everything.”
If you watched the Wolves last year — or Thibs-led teams ever — you would know this is a departure from the norm. 12:27 PM - Sep 25, 2018 · Minneapolis, MN
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Apparently Derek Rose is in the best physical condition in 4 years. He's been working the most on his 3 pt shot getting up hundreds per day. --------------------------------
2nd day of camp
------------------------------ Luol Deng
It would be great if Luol comes out and proves everybody wrong. I'm rooting for him. ---------------------
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Post by pagliatti on Sept 27, 2018 3:24:38 GMT -6
The current situation is really unfortunate with Thibs hatred through the roof and the turmoil around the team. Ideally they give him some leash and let things develop.
Derrick Rose at the minimum is not the same as Knicks Rose with star (and role) contract. Deng at the minimum is not the same as Lakers Deng with star (and role as such) contract. Those were set to fail. This is another completely different scenario and advanced stats won't show that.
IMO Thibs got plenty of options to thrive where depth was an issue (Rose, Nunnally,Deng,Okogie and Keita were obtained with really minimal resources) and only a situation with his hands sort of tied- doubt he had the power to decide much on dumping any of the young guys or even force their hand- put him in the corner.
The dangerous situation is that he could be gone with his troupe and his winning. I could see Taj/Teague giving home discount while Rose/Deng are kept on modest contracts going forward and that type of depth, cap management would be missed.
His next job interview: "I made the playoffs in year two after an historic drought, I got a top 10-20 player in the league for peanuts if not their shell, a couple former All-Stars too for a dime to a market where the MLE usually netted you Mark Blount or Mike James."
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Post by RAHchills on Sept 27, 2018 5:05:55 GMT -6
"I got a top 10-20 player in the league for peanuts if not their shell, a couple former All-Stars too for a dime to a market where the MLE usually netted you Mark Blount or Mike James." My follow up interview question, if he were to answer that way: Can you do something similar with players that weren’t on the 2010/2011 Bulls roster?
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Post by pagliatti on Sept 27, 2018 5:30:40 GMT -6
"I got a top 10-20 player in the league for peanuts if not their shell, a couple former All-Stars too for a dime to a market where the MLE usually netted you Mark Blount or Mike James." My follow up interview question, if he were to answer that way: Can you do something similar with players that weren’t on the 2010/2011 Bulls roster? "Those players on that roster got 15+ million per in the meantime. I got them for almost nothing. If we are going to talk flaws I wouldn't need to pay Gorgui betting against phantoms. By disgrace I was on a team that already paid, and what's worse hyped and rated, their own guys too much too often, there was a toxic culture of setting altars to false deities. Now those are in China, at home or running LBJ out of town." Now if any manager could have any player at a discount he would be the main asset in the league; it doesn't matter how you get advantage, it matters that you are able to get advantage somehow.
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 27, 2018 9:32:33 GMT -6
Dane Moore @danemoorenba
At day one of training camp, the Wolves ran defensive drills that “switched everything.”
If you watched the Wolves last year — or Thibs-led teams ever — you would know this is a departure from the norm. 12:27 PM - Sep 25, 2018 · Minneapolis, MN
------------------------------------------------------------------ Apparently Derek Rose is in the best physical condition in 4 years. He's been working the most on his 3 pt shot getting up hundreds per day. -------------------------------- 2nd day of camp ------------------------------ Luol Deng It would be great if Luol comes out and proves everybody wrong. I'm rooting for him. --------------------- I am pretty sure that I'm in the best physical condition Rose has been in 4 years. I jest, this is good news. I always wondered how he would split the defenders without his walker getting caught on a jersey. 8) Seriously, though, I know I have some pretty intense "Rose-hate", but it's not really that. First, I have always felt that he was wildly overrated even in his prime. It is true that he can't stay healthy, but when I hear people saying "he's a shell of what he was", I want to respond with, "actually, he's pretty much always been this". That is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think by as much as one would think. He will never return to "MVP form" because he was never actually worthy of an MVP. And the second thing I hate about Rose here, is Thibs. The contract and the role he was supposed to have is perfectly fine. That is why I never really chimed in after the re-signing. At his price as the 8th or 9th man in the rotation, he's fine. But, as we have already seen, Thibs appears to be chomping at the bit to get him in the starting lineup, so much so that Rose leapfrogged Tyus, who is far more deserving, and stuck him with the 1st team when Butler didn't show. That is my concern. Any other coach would have kept him with the reserves, where I think he is an actual value. As a starter, we will get lit up. And I don't think Thibs can give Rose the run he deserves because he is heavily biased.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 27, 2018 9:47:45 GMT -6
Dane Moore @danemoorenba
At day one of training camp, the Wolves ran defensive drills that “switched everything.”
If you watched the Wolves last year — or Thibs-led teams ever — you would know this is a departure from the norm. 12:27 PM - Sep 25, 2018 · Minneapolis, MN
------------------------------------------------------------------ Apparently Derek Rose is in the best physical condition in 4 years. He's been working the most on his 3 pt shot getting up hundreds per day. -------------------------------- 2nd day of camp ------------------------------ Luol Deng It would be great if Luol comes out and proves everybody wrong. I'm rooting for him. --------------------- I am pretty sure that I'm in the best physical condition Rose has been in 4 years. I jest, this is good news. I always wondered how he would split the defenders without his walker getting caught on a jersey. 8) Seriously, though, I know I have some pretty intense "Rose-hate", but it's not really that. First, I have always felt that he was wildly overrated even in his prime. It is true that he can't stay healthy, but when I hear people saying "he's a shell of what he was", I want to respond with, "actually, he's pretty much always been this". That is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think by as much as one would think. He will never return to "MVP form" because he was never actually worthy of an MVP. And the second thing I hate about Rose here, is Thibs. The contract and the role he was supposed to have is perfectly fine. That is why I never really chimed in after the re-signing. At his price as the 8th or 9th man in the rotation, he's fine. But, as we have already seen, Thibs appears to be chomping at the bit to get him in the starting lineup, so much so that Rose leapfrogged Tyus, who is far more deserving, and stuck him with the 1st team when Butler didn't show. That is my concern. Any other coach would have kept him with the reserves, where I think he is an actual value. As a starter, we will get lit up. And I don't think Thibs can give Rose the run he deserves because he is heavily biased. This was always the problem with making any kind of commitment to Rose. It takes a roster spot from someone who fits better. Before the Butler news, there was all this talk about the improved bench, but other than Rookies and a min flyer on a guy like Nunnaly, the first "wing" up was/is Rose. Butler happened leaving us with Rose as that first guy up. Who else should be running with the starting unit at this point? To me it's just really apparent that Thibs is very narrow minded in his evaluations. He wants guys that do certain things even if they're not very good and without considering that there are other ways to play. Good basketball players like Rubio and now Tyus don't jive with what he wants so despite them being positives on the court, they're not favored.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 27, 2018 10:32:44 GMT -6
Dane Moore @danemoorenba
At day one of training camp, the Wolves ran defensive drills that “switched everything.”
If you watched the Wolves last year — or Thibs-led teams ever — you would know this is a departure from the norm. 12:27 PM - Sep 25, 2018 · Minneapolis, MN
------------------------------------------------------------------ Apparently Derek Rose is in the best physical condition in 4 years. He's been working the most on his 3 pt shot getting up hundreds per day. -------------------------------- 2nd day of camp ------------------------------ Luol Deng It would be great if Luol comes out and proves everybody wrong. I'm rooting for him. --------------------- I am pretty sure that I'm in the best physical condition Rose has been in 4 years. I jest, this is good news. I always wondered how he would split the defenders without his walker getting caught on a jersey. 8) Seriously, though, I know I have some pretty intense "Rose-hate", but it's not really that. First, I have always felt that he was wildly overrated even in his prime. It is true that he can't stay healthy, but when I hear people saying "he's a shell of what he was", I want to respond with, "actually, he's pretty much always been this". That is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think by as much as one would think. He will never return to "MVP form" because he was never actually worthy of an MVP. And the second thing I hate about Rose here, is Thibs. The contract and the role he was supposed to have is perfectly fine. That is why I never really chimed in after the re-signing. At his price as the 8th or 9th man in the rotation, he's fine. But, as we have already seen, Thibs appears to be chomping at the bit to get him in the starting lineup, so much so that Rose leapfrogged Tyus, who is far more deserving, and stuck him with the 1st team when Butler didn't show. That is my concern. Any other coach would have kept him with the reserves, where I think he is an actual value. As a starter, we will get lit up. And I don't think Thibs can give Rose the run he deserves because he is heavily biased. I have thought much the same about Rose as you in the past. Maybe not as bad. I can't see him starting though. I think he's in the starting lineup now in camp to get a better look at his overall skill level right now. This is a temporary thing. I like how he played with the 2nd unit late last year and that's where he belongs. I was surprised at how effective he was. He seems to be humbled these days. I'm more open minded about him now.
I would like nothing more than Rose and Deng hitting it out of the park this year.
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 27, 2018 10:43:26 GMT -6
I am pretty sure that I'm in the best physical condition Rose has been in 4 years. I jest, this is good news. I always wondered how he would split the defenders without his walker getting caught on a jersey. 8) Seriously, though, I know I have some pretty intense "Rose-hate", but it's not really that. First, I have always felt that he was wildly overrated even in his prime. It is true that he can't stay healthy, but when I hear people saying "he's a shell of what he was", I want to respond with, "actually, he's pretty much always been this". That is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think by as much as one would think. He will never return to "MVP form" because he was never actually worthy of an MVP. And the second thing I hate about Rose here, is Thibs. The contract and the role he was supposed to have is perfectly fine. That is why I never really chimed in after the re-signing. At his price as the 8th or 9th man in the rotation, he's fine. But, as we have already seen, Thibs appears to be chomping at the bit to get him in the starting lineup, so much so that Rose leapfrogged Tyus, who is far more deserving, and stuck him with the 1st team when Butler didn't show. That is my concern. Any other coach would have kept him with the reserves, where I think he is an actual value. As a starter, we will get lit up. And I don't think Thibs can give Rose the run he deserves because he is heavily biased. I have thought much the same about Rose as you in the past. Maybe not as bad. I can't see him starting though. I think he's in the starting lineup now in camp to get a better look at his overall skill level right now. This is a temporary thing. I like how he played with the 2nd unit late last year and that's where he belongs. I was surprised at how effective he was. He seems to be humbled these days. I'm more open minded about him now. I would like nothing more than Rose and Deng hitting it out of the park this year.
I am sure I come across harder on Rose than I really feel. I try not to. I feel like he was an All-Star level talent at his peak, but not much beyond that. I know it can sound like I think he was a career backup, but I don't think that way. I just don't think he was elite. Like, if you offer me Derrick Rose's best year, or Kyrie Irving, I take Irving. Both are terrible defenders, and while Derrick is more dangerous on the way to the rim, Irving's all-around offensive game is more polished and reliable. I will take Irving's outside shooting over Rose's stronger finish at the rim. I will say that I suppose that it is possible that Thibs feels Rose in the starting lineup would have the smallest impact on the team when the deal goes through or Butler returns. Maybe he wants the second team to work more with Tyus than Rose, or he feels like Rose can just snap in later because he needs less reps with the second unit. Or because he wants Rose "at the 2" and Tyus at point. But, it is really hard not to think that it is really because Thibs has Rose above Tyus on the depth chart. Trying to keep an open mind, but Thibs hasn't given us many reasons to think he isn't irresponsibly biased towards his Chicago players.
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Post by levine on Sept 27, 2018 10:50:26 GMT -6
I am pretty sure that I'm in the best physical condition Rose has been in 4 years. I jest, this is good news. I always wondered how he would split the defenders without his walker getting caught on a jersey. 8) Seriously, though, I know I have some pretty intense "Rose-hate", but it's not really that. First, I have always felt that he was wildly overrated even in his prime. It is true that he can't stay healthy, but when I hear people saying "he's a shell of what he was", I want to respond with, "actually, he's pretty much always been this". That is a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think by as much as one would think. He will never return to "MVP form" because he was never actually worthy of an MVP. And the second thing I hate about Rose here, is Thibs. The contract and the role he was supposed to have is perfectly fine. That is why I never really chimed in after the re-signing. At his price as the 8th or 9th man in the rotation, he's fine. But, as we have already seen, Thibs appears to be chomping at the bit to get him in the starting lineup, so much so that Rose leapfrogged Tyus, who is far more deserving, and stuck him with the 1st team when Butler didn't show. That is my concern. Any other coach would have kept him with the reserves, where I think he is an actual value. As a starter, we will get lit up. And I don't think Thibs can give Rose the run he deserves because he is heavily biased. I have thought much the same about Rose as you in the past. Maybe not as bad. I can't see him starting though. I think he's in the starting lineup now in camp to get a better look at his overall skill level right now. This is a temporary thing. I like how he played with the 2nd unit late last year and that's where he belongs. I was surprised at how effective he was. He seems to be humbled these days. I'm more open minded about him now.
I would like nothing more than Rose and Deng hitting it out of the park this year.
I don't want Rose on the team at all, but its understandable why he's currently with the starters. Wiggins is the only established wing on the team with Butler out. I just don't see starting Okogee or Nunnelly at this point. Its just more of Thibs strange handling of the wing position. I like the guys he added, but even if Butler was part of the team, we were going into the season again without a single proven back-up wing...
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Post by pagliatti on Sept 27, 2018 11:08:32 GMT -6
The thing with Rose, and I don't like scoring from PG and even less if it involves dribbling the basketball, is the value/cost going forward.
Tyus, like it or not, is a good candidate to enter the no man's land territory. The contract of a clear starter for a guy who never showed enough of starting capabilities, just very nice outings from the bench. He might get overpaid. OTOH Teague is proven and probably has his salary going down soon enough (wouldn't discard his option declined and some extension 3/36 or 3/39).
Derrick Rose just fits because he is making peanuts. You can't compare costs because, even with a mirage season, the market shouldn't explode going after Rose. If that happens you just sabotaged Tyus and congrats, you resign him on the very low side.
The plan seemed very clear, 3 maxes and players on a discount. Now they have to operate under different parameters but getting players with a chance to beat their contract is paramount.
Rose or Deng are probably capped at MLE not matter what, Taj should also be under control as well as Nunnally and the rookies. Those situations suggest some continuity- this saga invalidates the whole plan- which would be very good for the franchise, with development guaranteed from chemistry/repetitions and young guys getting better.
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Post by RAHchills on Sept 27, 2018 16:58:53 GMT -6
My follow up interview question, if he were to answer that way: Can you do something similar with players that weren’t on the 2010/2011 Bulls roster? Now if any manager could have any player at a discount he would be the main asset in the league; it doesn't matter how you get advantage, it matters that you are able to get advantage somehow. That's the point, IMO. Everybody has seen what he was able to do with his ex-players... that he was only able to do it with his ex-players... and that he's all out of ex-players. He's a one-trick pony with no more tricks... and it was not even a good trick in the first place. Lets talk about free agents: - Rose and Deng are both at the last stop of their NBA careers - Taj, Teague, and Jamal were all overpaid - Gorgui was overpaid and Bazz got horrible advice from his agent - Cole Aldrich & Brandon Rush had zero impact on the court
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Post by pagliatti on Sept 28, 2018 2:59:56 GMT -6
Now if any manager could have any player at a discount he would be the main asset in the league; it doesn't matter how you get advantage, it matters that you are able to get advantage somehow. That's the point, IMO. Everybody has seen what he was able to do with his ex-players... that he was only able to do it with his ex-players... and that he's all out of ex-players. He's a one-trick pony with no more tricks... and it was not even a good trick in the first place. Lets talk about free agents: - Rose and Deng are both at the last stop of their NBA careers - Taj, Teague, and Jamal were all overpaid - Gorgui was overpaid and Bazz got horrible advice from his agent - Cole Aldrich & Brandon Rush had zero impact on the court Rose and Deng are value now at vet minimum even if they are a disaster. Taj and Teague got a premium to sign team friendly duration contracts. You control rights and more or less most of the rest of their careers, I would say productive careers. Perceived better players like Lowry and Millsap got a lot more with terrible duration attached, AKA minimal value after they are done. Gorgui was overpaid. Bazz would be another Gorgui, it didn't happen so it doesn't matter. Bad luck rarely enters the equation so good luck... Cole was overpaid but probably impacted as well by Gorgui overpay. Rush had too much of a role for his salary/ability, I liked him more than most but I also see salary first, salary second to determine what you should put to the table. Thibs didn't get much of some players with reputation such as Crawful, Cole, Jordan Hill. All small fish if you ask me, whiffles which are to be expected in about any team, particularly when some young guys are artificially played. The perception of Teague here is a bit biased-he is really talented- and rarely takes the long road into account. (When Rubio contract soars or his value plummets while Teague remains kind of stable or his salary gets adequated to age/decline vicissitudes). Teague is a valid 4th,5th piece going forward and teams know that. Thibs has one fatal flaw, which was to make it a given that the big three would be kept. This team would make the postseason again, with more depth, more chemistry and the young guys getting better. There is not much precedent of teams winning without above average defense. Even guys like Gasol with his scarce and declining mobility clogged the lane, Dirk had a hell of a team with a great Tyson Chandler and was himself a decent piece of meat, far from undersized. GSW has two warhorses for SF (KD is freaking 6'10), one of the grittiest PF out there and played a collection of Cs with a very limited role, dirty laundry stuff being central. I am not impressed about outrunning teams and playing ultrasmallball. Maybe because it didn't work. Never. Anywhere. That's a good reason actually for JB to want out, the team is making a massive effort with guys who are yet to develop a ton in parts of the game which are not negotiable. He might see those players as centered into aspects that won't scream sacrifice, Nick Wiggins praise to god and the ringer piece all suggest that those players could see themselves growing not where they should be adamant to grow first and foremost. It is not that a coach put you in a path to success, it is that slots are invented and they are meant to bring some particular skills to the table. HOU was good enough at both sides of the court, MN wasn't. I equate it to soccer. When a couple teams started to go with long possession of short passes-tiki taka- everybody looked at it as a change of the guard. Skilled passers were in demand and stronger, direct players went out of style. However it didn't last much, nowadays every player is expected to be competent at passing but if you can't put pressure you are out; possession remained as a central aspect of the game but it got a tremendous asterisk, you also need to be capable of messing the rival gameplan. Or you are out. Spacing in the NBA is far from the panacea, Ryan Anderson is considered a terrible contract, KLove just a bit better due to when the contract was signed and some other players in that vein got a lukewarm market attention. Big men without above average defense are not worth much neither are big wings. You are expected to shoot the ball but it is not enough.
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 28, 2018 9:14:43 GMT -6
Just so people know, if you are quoting someone and your cursor gets stuck inside the quote, there are tabs at the bottom of the textbox. One is BBCode. If you go there, you have the post in the same sort of format as the old site, so you can move your cursor outside the quote tags and not just add your message to someone else's quote. It also lets you split up quotes and edit links if you need to.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 5, 2018 16:58:09 GMT -6
Timberwolves look ICE-ed Out Posted by Aaron Herbst
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