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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 25, 2018 9:48:34 GMT -6
What is happening with KAT is very concerning IMO. Whether it's the underlying issues with Butler or an ongoing issue with how we're unable to maximize his offensive talent, the early season trend is troubling.
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Post by levine on Oct 25, 2018 10:06:56 GMT -6
What is happening with KAT is very concerning IMO. Whether it's the underlying issues with Butler or an ongoing issue with how we're unable to maximize his offensive talent, the early season trend is troubling. Butler and Rose refuse to pass to him, Teague is incapable of passing to him in the post. And we have a coach who is only concerned with running isos for his guards. Not to mention a completely toxic environment where Thibs and Butler have free reign to bully the hell out of him, while his owner appears to be reneging on the promise he made to him to get him to sign his contract. I expect he's going to try to get off this team ASAP if things continue this way.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 25, 2018 10:52:54 GMT -6
I don't understand, please explain. The Raptors were 11 of 32 from 3.
The Raptors jammed up the lane minimizing one of our strongest players (KAT) leaving open 3 point attempts. In and out game. Clog up the lane (defense), drive and kick out for a 3 (offense) 15-30 threes at 50% for the Wolves (very much unlike the Wolves) while 40-96 below 45% for 2's. Had we shot more threes at that rate or made more attempted 3's we might have won. Hell Okogie missed his first 7 shots. 1/2 of those go in and it's a different game. OK, I get it. You're right we should have shot more 3's. Derek Rose was too busy driving to the basket.
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Post by The Country Club on Oct 25, 2018 10:56:49 GMT -6
What is happening with KAT is very concerning IMO. Whether it's the underlying issues with Butler or an ongoing issue with how we're unable to maximize his offensive talent, the early season trend is troubling. Butler and Rose refuse to pass to him, Teague is incapable of passing to him in the post. And we have a coach who is only concerned with running isos for his guards. Not to mention a completely toxic environment where Thibs and Butler have free reign to bully the hell out of him, while his owner appears to be reneging on the promise he made to him to get him to sign his contract. I expect he's going to try to get off this team ASAP if things continue this way. "Yes, yes, he is a good coach and I have faith in him." - The Ostrich
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Post by Nick K on Oct 25, 2018 11:02:29 GMT -6
KAT's got to suck it up, tell the coach to get me the flippin ball and go out and get it done.
This Toronto team is tough. The epitome of team.
What's that going to do? Rose, Teague and Butler still aren't going to look for him. And its not like Thibs has any idea how to do anything on offense other than to give the ball to his guards and say "go score".It makes me sick how true that is. It happens way too often and takes us out of games.
At times though, especially early in games, he has the guys aggressively passing the ball and playing the right way. It usually works! Then the next thing you see is the 2 guards driving into 4 guys and turning it over or missing. Maddening.
BTW, the key to that 2nd unit next to good defense was great ball movement leading to open shots.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 25, 2018 11:13:00 GMT -6
I thought they played pretty well overall, against the best team in the East. They just couldn't make up that first-quarter deficit, but every other quarter was very close. I'm just glad to not be seeing the 3rd quarter collapse again this year. I'm frustrated watching KAT turn into a jump shooter though. So far this season, he seems to have abandoned his array of low-post moves in favor of turn around, fade away jump shots from 15 feet. I actually thought that the Teague, Okogie, Butler, Taj, KAT lineup looked pretty good out there, and they were +5 as a group for most of the 3rd quarter, until the 2nd unit came in and they went to -5 with Tyus, Rose, Okogie, Tolliver, and Dieng. Okogie is really growing on me. 11 rebounds! Are you kidding me? Is there any way to have him be a mentor to Wiggins, who is both taller and more athletic than Okogie but couldn't get 11 rebounds in his wildest dreams? I'm OK with KAT taking 3's. In fact, I want him to take more. he shoots a great %. He's the most effortless 3 pt shooter...reminds me of Kevin Durant.
That said, I want him to get plenty down low too. KAT has to take the most shots every night. The coach doesn't seem to agree.
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Post by boognish on Oct 25, 2018 12:38:17 GMT -6
I thought they played pretty well overall, against the best team in the East. They just couldn't make up that first-quarter deficit, but every other quarter was very close. I'm just glad to not be seeing the 3rd quarter collapse again this year. I'm frustrated watching KAT turn into a jump shooter though. So far this season, he seems to have abandoned his array of low-post moves in favor of turn around, fade away jump shots from 15 feet. I actually thought that the Teague, Okogie, Butler, Taj, KAT lineup looked pretty good out there, and they were +5 as a group for most of the 3rd quarter, until the 2nd unit came in and they went to -5 with Tyus, Rose, Okogie, Tolliver, and Dieng. Okogie is really growing on me. 11 rebounds! Are you kidding me? Is there any way to have him be a mentor to Wiggins, who is both taller and more athletic than Okogie but couldn't get 11 rebounds in his wildest dreams? I'm OK with KAT taking 3's. In fact, I want him to take more. he shoots a great %. He's the most effortless 3 pt shooter...reminds me of Kevin Durant.
That said, I want him to get plenty down low too. KAT has to take the most shots every night. The coach doesn't seem to agree.
I like the 3's, but when he has gotten the ball in the post this year he has settled for fadeaway jumpers most of the time instead of trying to back his man down and make some low-post moves.
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Post by boognish on Oct 25, 2018 12:44:58 GMT -6
What is happening with KAT is very concerning IMO. Whether it's the underlying issues with Butler or an ongoing issue with how we're unable to maximize his offensive talent, the early season trend is troubling. Butler and Rose refuse to pass to him, Teague is incapable of passing to him in the post. And we have a coach who is only concerned with running isos for his guards. Not to mention a completely toxic environment where Thibs and Butler have free reign to bully the hell out of him, while his owner appears to be reneging on the promise he made to him to get him to sign his contract. I expect he's going to try to get off this team ASAP if things continue this way. Some of that was on him last night. He was getting fronted in the post by Ibaka and would get so tangled up with him that it would have been impossible to pass it to him. He needs to be able to release and cut to the rim for a lob, or hold your guy there for a bit and open the door for cutters to go around him since he is so far up on defense. Tim Duncan was a master at that, and he would get fronted and doubled constantly. Teague has been one of, if not the best player on the team this year. Sorry to hear that you're still sore about Rubio and we'll have to spend yet another season listening to you rip on Teague every game. At least Zach is gone, so you can't pick on him constantly this year.
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Post by levine on Oct 25, 2018 13:04:40 GMT -6
Butler and Rose refuse to pass to him, Teague is incapable of passing to him in the post. And we have a coach who is only concerned with running isos for his guards. Not to mention a completely toxic environment where Thibs and Butler have free reign to bully the hell out of him, while his owner appears to be reneging on the promise he made to him to get him to sign his contract. I expect he's going to try to get off this team ASAP if things continue this way. Some of that was on him last night. He was getting fronted in the post by Ibaka and would get so tangled up with him that it would have been impossible to pass it to him. He needs to be able to release and cut to the rim for a lob, or hold your guy there for a bit and open the door for cutters to go around him since he is so far up on defense. Tim Duncan was a master at that, and he would get fronted and doubled constantly. Teague has been one of, if not the best player on the team this year. Sorry to hear that you're still sore about Rubio and we'll have to spend yet another season listening to you rip on Teague every game. At least Zach is gone, so you can't pick on him constantly this year. I've said plenty of nice things about Teague - especially lately. I just don't think he's a PG. I think he would absolutely thrive as a scorer off the bench. Like a legit 6th man of the year contender. I guess that's not good enough for you. Do I need to fawn over him with googly eyes? It has nothing to do with Rubio. I'm thrilled he's in a better place. The team isn't going anywhere with Teague and Rose dominating the ball. And I think KAT is about 75% checked out. He's not playing well, but I blame the toxic environment that Thibs continues to cultivate more than I blame Towns.
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Post by boognish on Oct 25, 2018 15:50:30 GMT -6
Some of that was on him last night. He was getting fronted in the post by Ibaka and would get so tangled up with him that it would have been impossible to pass it to him. He needs to be able to release and cut to the rim for a lob, or hold your guy there for a bit and open the door for cutters to go around him since he is so far up on defense. Tim Duncan was a master at that, and he would get fronted and doubled constantly. Teague has been one of, if not the best player on the team this year. Sorry to hear that you're still sore about Rubio and we'll have to spend yet another season listening to you rip on Teague every game. At least Zach is gone, so you can't pick on him constantly this year. I've said plenty of nice things about Teague - especially lately. I just don't think he's a PG. I think he would absolutely thrive as a scorer off the bench. Like a legit 6th man of the year contender. I guess that's not good enough for you. Do I need to fawn over him with googly eyes? It has nothing to do with Rubio. I'm thrilled he's in a better place. The team isn't going anywhere with Teague and Rose dominating the ball. And I think KAT is about 75% checked out. He's not playing well, but I blame the toxic environment that Thibs continues to cultivate more than I blame Towns. We'll have to agree to disagree on Teague. I think he's a very solid PG, who is averaging 9 assists per game. I like his herky-jerky change of pace ability, his floater, his 3-pt shooting, and his distribution of the ball. I'm glad that he's being more aggressive this year. My biggest problem with him last year was that I thought he had to defer too much, as Butler often brought the ball up the court. When he is allowed to initiate the offense this whole team is better. I also think that his calm confidence is a nice counter-point to Butler's high-emotion attitude. I'm with you on KAT. What worries me is that the rest of the team appears to be able to move past the Butler situation and the environment doesn't actually look that toxic from the outside. It just looks like Towns is the odd man out for some reason. Hopefully, the rest of his teammates haven't turned on him too.
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Post by levine on Oct 25, 2018 16:01:49 GMT -6
This is my take on Teague (I also want to add, I really like Teague the person. He's the only player on the team that continually calls out Thibs for his bullshit):
He's a good player, but he's not a PG. He's a small SG.
I think part of the reason he pounds the ball so much and is so indecisive about scoring is because he’s trying to play the point and it doesn’t come naturally to him. He’s thinking about what to do instead of just doing it.
He doesn’t see mismatches and he’s a horribly inaccurate passer. He really struggles running the break, and its shocking how poor he is at feeding the post.
But he’s a very solid 3pt shooter and an incredibly underrated driver, but he doesn’t do nearly enough of either. The guy can get to the rim against almost anyone – but he’s so hesitant to do it. Again, I think its because he's trying to be an unselfish PG. I would have no problem if he was taking as many shots as Rose does. Teague is 9th on the team in 3PAs/36 despite shooting 54% from behind the arc.
He really should be an instant-offense 6th man off the bench. Bring him into the game and tell him to always be in attack mode. Shoot if you’re open, drive every chance you get. I really think he’d thrive in that role. Basically the JJ Barea role in Dallas - but with a lot more ability. I think instead of being an average PG, he'd be an exceptional 6th man. A better Lou Williams/
And since both sides of the court matter, I'll add that he's a really, really bad defender. Every so often he goes on a "steals kick", but he generally looks incredibly disinterested on that end. He puts so much extra pressure on our bigs to cover for him. He really struggles with screens, and guys can dive at will against him.
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Post by levine on Oct 25, 2018 16:03:57 GMT -6
And he's still deferring. He's averaging exactly the same amount of FGAs as last year - and actually fewer 3s.
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Post by The Country Club on Oct 26, 2018 2:10:55 GMT -6
Tyus and Wiggins should be paired Teague and Okogie should be paired
Whether one pairing starts or sits doesn't matter to me but the pairings at least provide an offense-defense mix in the backcourt. I agree that Teague really isn't a point guard but given we don't really have two legit point guards on the roster, Teague is the second best "one" we have.
Rose should simply be buried to 5th guard status.
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