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Post by XRaySpecs on Nov 9, 2018 12:41:14 GMT -6
If Thibs is going to stay, then we absolutely should deal Tyus as he'll be gone next summer.
A smart team would never have this question to answer though as Rose would never be here and we'd have a much better sense of what kind of player Tyus actually is. Assessing what Tyus is under Thibs isn't fair given what is valued in this offense. RFA could really help us next year. Who is breaking the bank for Tyus? I can't see a team offering a deal we wouldn't match.
As far as Rose. I'm not surprised. Rose is temporarily healthy and on a hot streak. His box scores look good. We're 4-8 though. Almost everyone else has regressed. Rose can't be anything but the center of a team to be effective and the best case scenario is occurring right now yet we're losing.
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Post by tjstyles on Nov 9, 2018 13:59:21 GMT -6
This I think is the crux of this conversation. I cannot disagree with this statement more. Both Teague and Rose are very narrow players. They have a single skillset they are good at, and everything else is well below average. Tyus is a better defender, better passer, better play maker, and (until the shooting woes this season), a better shooter. Teague and Rose are both better at attacking the basket, but Tyus is, by far, the better overall player. Take the assist rate of Tyus vs. Teague (cause Rose isn't even in the same discussion as either). Teague has a higher assist rate, so you might ask what I am talking about saying Tyus is the better passer and playmaker. The difference is that Tyus is very close to Teague and Tyus plays mainly with the league's lowest scoring bench while Teague has been playing with one of the leagues' highest scoring starting 5. Assist ratio is highly affected by who you play with, and Teague has Butler and Towns to pass to while Tyus has had players like ShaMu and Brandon Rush to pass to. When either Teague or Rose gets Towns 20 shots in a game, I will maybe, possibly, consider either of them being a better choice over Tyus. But, until then, I don't want either of those players controlling the offense of the Timberwolves. I don't like Rose style and sometimes Teague's style leaves you thinking he does not move the needle at all but both of them bring something to the table. The former creates penetration and put a lot of pressure over defense, the latter brings a lot of consistency statswise through seasons. Tyus, through several seasons, has shown he is a low mistakes, nice effort guy. Like a bunch backup PGs before him. Once they get paid their level is revisited, the Luke Ridnours/Ramon Sessions/Bareas/Dellavedovas/Mike James of the world. He can shoot but isn't able to force shot situations, he can really pick pockets but won't dry anyone through a whole match, terrible in switches- Rose is getting murdered but he is still finding how much is left and also playing a lot of SG- and he is soft at either rim. There is an issue with analytics. You just can't put under the same terms a guy who clashes with defenses and plays to find fissures- even if that clash doesn't involve penetration as Steph or Durant otherworldly range- and guys who will perform when the situation fits them picking their battles the whole time. Teague is a bit in the middle as a guy who will get his but allows you to play 2 or 3 guys over him in the pecking order. From what I have seen from Tyus there is not any confirmation of ability to sustain offense or 20+mpg of solid defense out of his element in the long run. He might be a spark plug sometimes and a decent backup PG most of the time. In respect to the KAT consideration it should depend on whether a team should go through him as a first option. He needs to have that on him and he needs to impose his will to get there. Would Anthony Davis be in this situation? Is it the right call to put the offense through him when he is still improving at many, many aspects of the game? When I see Marc Gasol I see plenty success and not every ball needs to be in his hands or fly to the rim to impact the game. It might be the correct call to have KAT concentrated in other duties as there aren't many examples of shooting Cs getting accomplishments- Embiid has similar issues and guys like Love or Cousins are not at their highest. Most elite players in this league have multiple rabbits in their hat and KAT still has some key fundamentals off, starting probably from what you should expect from a supermaxed big. Your best players should be enablers for the rest of the team, creating gravity and killing confidence with their Derek Fishers or Javale McGees filling the statsheet. When they only hold the ball more time or just take more possessions you have the Wolves or Wizards. In the end it might not be a bad jedi mind trick all the usage through Rose regardless of sustainability or even efficiency because you don't really want the two young guys hiding behind empty stats games. You want them analyzing the game enough to find aspects where they could bring value. They passed space cadet-making buckets in the NBA on a regular basis- and now starts the real game which is to read the game well enough to create value, particularly to affect the game the 90% of the time when you don't smell the ball at all. I don't even know where to start here. I really want to talk about the KAT stuff here, because I think you and I are on completely different ends of the spectrum. Davis has a PG that will/can pass him the ball. We should have a PG that does the same. Neither Teague nor Rose gets the ball to Towns. Towns makes the most of what he gets and he is still a top 5 center in the league. If we had a PG that was getting him the ball consistently, things would be even better. He did cause a stink in the off season over Butler, and got a promise that they would handle it and nothing happened. Is he supposed to fuel the media fire around the Wolves and start making a big scene about not getting the ball more? What will really happen is that when his contract is up Durant Towns is going to bail and go somewhere he doesn't have to remind people that he should have the ball more. KAT has multiple tricks. He won the skills drill in the ASG, he is a great passer and he has pretty much every shot on the court at his disposal. The ball should move through him. He is the best player on our team on the offense and it isn't even close, and he can facilitate as well as dominate on his own. He averages a double-double with 2 blocks. It's not like he isn't bringing other things to the table as well. But, he can't force the defense to focus on him if he never gets the ball. Defenses know that they can just deny the entry pass, so they don't need to double Towns. They force Teague to beat them. Spin it however you like, but when we play again the Lakers, I say "keep the ball out of LeBron's hands and force Lonzo to beat us". Our offense (specifically Teague and Rose's inability to get the ball to our best offensive player) is literally the best defender on the court. I would be amazed if there isn't one team coming into the Target Center with the plan to "limit Towns' touches" and to do that effectively, all they have to do is be on the court.
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Post by tjstyles on Nov 9, 2018 16:13:35 GMT -6
This I think is the crux of this conversation. I cannot disagree with this statement more. Both Teague and Rose are very narrow players. They have a single skillset they are good at, and everything else is well below average. Tyus is a better defender, better passer, better play maker, and (until the shooting woes this season), a better shooter. Teague and Rose are both better at attacking the basket, but Tyus is, by far, the better overall player. Take the assist rate of Tyus vs. Teague (cause Rose isn't even in the same discussion as either). Teague has a higher assist rate, so you might ask what I am talking about saying Tyus is the better passer and playmaker. The difference is that Tyus is very close to Teague and Tyus plays mainly with the league's lowest scoring bench while Teague has been playing with one of the leagues' highest scoring starting 5. Assist ratio is highly affected by who you play with, and Teague has Butler and Towns to pass to while Tyus has had players like ShaMu and Brandon Rush to pass to. When either Teague or Rose gets Towns 20 shots in a game, I will maybe, possibly, consider either of them being a better choice over Tyus. But, until then, I don't want either of those players controlling the offense of the Timberwolves. I don't like Rose style and sometimes Teague's style leaves you thinking he does not move the needle at all but both of them bring something to the table. The former creates penetration and put a lot of pressure over defense, the latter brings a lot of consistency statswise through seasons. Tyus, through several seasons, has shown he is a low mistakes, nice effort guy. Like a bunch backup PGs before him. Once they get paid their level is revisited, the Luke Ridnours/Ramon Sessions/Bareas/Dellavedovas/Mike James of the world. He can shoot but isn't able to force shot situations, he can really pick pockets but won't dry anyone through a whole match, terrible in switches- Rose is getting murdered but he is still finding how much is left and also playing a lot of SG- and he is soft at either rim. There is an issue with analytics. You just can't put under the same terms a guy who clashes with defenses and plays to find fissures- even if that clash doesn't involve penetration as Steph or Durant otherworldly range- and guys who will perform when the situation fits them picking their battles the whole time. Teague is a bit in the middle as a guy who will get his but allows you to play 2 or 3 guys over him in the pecking order. From what I have seen from Tyus there is not any confirmation of ability to sustain offense or 20+mpg of solid defense out of his element in the long run. He might be a spark plug sometimes and a decent backup PG most of the time. In respect to the KAT consideration it should depend on whether a team should go through him as a first option. He needs to have that on him and he needs to impose his will to get there. Would Anthony Davis be in this situation? Is it the right call to put the offense through him when he is still improving at many, many aspects of the game? When I see Marc Gasol I see plenty success and not every ball needs to be in his hands or fly to the rim to impact the game. It might be the correct call to have KAT concentrated in other duties as there aren't many examples of shooting Cs getting accomplishments- Embiid has similar issues and guys like Love or Cousins are not at their highest. Most elite players in this league have multiple rabbits in their hat and KAT still has some key fundamentals off, starting probably from what you should expect from a supermaxed big. Your best players should be enablers for the rest of the team, creating gravity and killing confidence with their Derek Fishers or Javale McGees filling the statsheet. When they only hold the ball more time or just take more possessions you have the Wolves or Wizards. In the end it might not be a bad jedi mind trick all the usage through Rose regardless of sustainability or even efficiency because you don't really want the two young guys hiding behind empty stats games. You want them analyzing the game enough to find aspects where they could bring value. They passed space cadet-making buckets in the NBA on a regular basis- and now starts the real game which is to read the game well enough to create value, particularly to affect the game the 90% of the time when you don't smell the ball at all. Ran out of time before, so I will address the other parts quickly now. I get the idea of not wanting our young guys getting comfortable with "empty stats". But, that is exactly what I feel like we are allowing them to do. I feel like Rose's game is the definition of "empty stats". One player dribbling around the court until he takes a shot or coughs the ball up. That is who our young players are learning from because that is the guy Thibs bends over backwards to keep in the game. Butler is a lesser version of Rose, but its the same selfish ball. Teague knows what he is supposed to do as a PG, but he isn't good at it, so he ends up playing more selfish ball as well. We are teaching these kids that "me ball" is the right way to play. These players want their stats to go up on every possession. They don't make the "first pass", they look to make the "last pass". And, if they can't make the pass that leads to an assist, they dribble into a triple team and try and force a shot that isn't there. You want these guys to not look for empty stats, you teach them the Spurs offense of kicking the ball around for 20 seconds until you find the open shot. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to having a guy like Teague on the roster. I have really warmed up to him. I just don't think he is a PG. I would like to see him at the 2. When we move Butler, assuming we don't get a better wing in from the trade (like Richardson), I would be fine with moving Teague to the 2 and starting Tyus at point. I think that combination complements each other pretty well on offense. Defense will be a mess, but that can be said of anything we put on the floor. It can't be worse than what we have seen in the past. We've played Ridnour against Artest...on purpose, for crying out loud. At the end of the day, to me, Tyus is the only true PG on the roster. I get that the league likes scoring PGs, and right now Tyus can't buy a bucket (believe me, I know; he's on my fantasy team). But, Tyus can score. He's not as proficient in it as Rose or Teague, but he has the PG part of the equation getting other people involved. He is enough of a threat that defenses have to respect his drive when he gets by his man, and when they do, he has the ability (and the inclination) to find the open shooter. That, to me, is 100 times more valuable for the team than the ability to get 50 points once every 6 seasons. I think it speaks volumes when Rose can even get triple teamed. It isn't that the other people on the floor aren't a threat; it's that they know that there is very, very little chance Rose gives up the ball. Tyus never gets triple teamed because everyone knows that if they do, they give a wide open shot to someone and that Tyus will make that pass. Every time. Teague is a 50/50, but they know that if he does pass it, there is a good chance it is a turnover. We are a better team with Tyus on the floor. We are 1-3 when Rose scores more than 20 in a game. We are 2-2 in games that Towns scores more than 20. Or, maybe more telling is we are 1-4 in games where Towns scores less than 15 and we are 3-4 in games where Rose scores less than 15. The more points Rose scores, the less likely it is we win the game. Now, I will say that I do recognize that there is more to it than that. 3 of our 4 wins are also the highest rebounding games for Towns. We are undefeated when Towns gets 15 rebounds. And even last year we are 17-6 when Towns gets 14+ rebounds. I do get that we have to hold Towns to a higher standard and ask him to contribute other places when he isn't getting the shots and he should, as our franchise, step up there. I am not suggesting we shouldn't ask him to be the best player on the court. But, I absolutely feel that us going into a game with a game plan other than giving Towns as many touches as we can is idiotic. Get the ball to Towns and let him dish it back out if he can't get the shot. Forcing the defense to react to Towns having the ball in his hands is the easiest way for us to open up a shooter. The defense will react almost every time. And the times they don't, Towns is the "open shooter".
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 21:21:05 GMT -6
I don't like Rose style and sometimes Teague's style leaves you thinking he does not move the needle at all but both of them bring something to the table. The former creates penetration and put a lot of pressure over defense, the latter brings a lot of consistency statswise through seasons. Tyus, through several seasons, has shown he is a low mistakes, nice effort guy. Like a bunch backup PGs before him. Once they get paid their level is revisited, the Luke Ridnours/Ramon Sessions/Bareas/Dellavedovas/Mike James of the world. He can shoot but isn't able to force shot situations, he can really pick pockets but won't dry anyone through a whole match, terrible in switches- Rose is getting murdered but he is still finding how much is left and also playing a lot of SG- and he is soft at either rim. There is an issue with analytics. You just can't put under the same terms a guy who clashes with defenses and plays to find fissures- even if that clash doesn't involve penetration as Steph or Durant otherworldly range- and guys who will perform when the situation fits them picking their battles the whole time. Teague is a bit in the middle as a guy who will get his but allows you to play 2 or 3 guys over him in the pecking order. From what I have seen from Tyus there is not any confirmation of ability to sustain offense or 20+mpg of solid defense out of his element in the long run. He might be a spark plug sometimes and a decent backup PG most of the time. In respect to the KAT consideration it should depend on whether a team should go through him as a first option. He needs to have that on him and he needs to impose his will to get there. Would Anthony Davis be in this situation? Is it the right call to put the offense through him when he is still improving at many, many aspects of the game? When I see Marc Gasol I see plenty success and not every ball needs to be in his hands or fly to the rim to impact the game. It might be the correct call to have KAT concentrated in other duties as there aren't many examples of shooting Cs getting accomplishments- Embiid has similar issues and guys like Love or Cousins are not at their highest. Most elite players in this league have multiple rabbits in their hat and KAT still has some key fundamentals off, starting probably from what you should expect from a supermaxed big. Your best players should be enablers for the rest of the team, creating gravity and killing confidence with their Derek Fishers or Javale McGees filling the statsheet. When they only hold the ball more time or just take more possessions you have the Wolves or Wizards. In the end it might not be a bad jedi mind trick all the usage through Rose regardless of sustainability or even efficiency because you don't really want the two young guys hiding behind empty stats games. You want them analyzing the game enough to find aspects where they could bring value. They passed space cadet-making buckets in the NBA on a regular basis- and now starts the real game which is to read the game well enough to create value, particularly to affect the game the 90% of the time when you don't smell the ball at all. I don't even know where to start here. I really want to talk about the KAT stuff here, because I think you and I are on completely different ends of the spectrum. Davis has a PG that will/can pass him the ball. We should have a PG that does the same. Neither Teague nor Rose gets the ball to Towns. Towns makes the most of what he gets and he is still a top 5 center in the league. If we had a PG that was getting him the ball consistently, things would be even better. He did cause a stink in the off season over Butler, and got a promise that they would handle it and nothing happened. Is he supposed to fuel the media fire around the Wolves and start making a big scene about not getting the ball more? What will really happen is that when his contract is up Durant Towns is going to bail and go somewhere he doesn't have to remind people that he should have the ball more. KAT has multiple tricks. He won the skills drill in the ASG, he is a great passer and he has pretty much every shot on the court at his disposal. The ball should move through him. He is the best player on our team on the offense and it isn't even close, and he can facilitate as well as dominate on his own. He averages a double-double with 2 blocks. It's not like he isn't bringing other things to the table as well. But, he can't force the defense to focus on him if he never gets the ball. Defenses know that they can just deny the entry pass, so they don't need to double Towns. They force Teague to beat them. Spin it however you like, but when we play again the Lakers, I say "keep the ball out of LeBron's hands and force Lonzo to beat us". Our offense (specifically Teague and Rose's inability to get the ball to our best offensive player) is literally the best defender on the court. I would be amazed if there isn't one team coming into the Target Center with the plan to "limit Towns' touches" and to do that effectively, all they have to do is be on the court. I agree with you about KAT, but I believe KAT's lack of touches is either because of scheme or because the players don't trust KAT for some reason. I believe that Tyus is the 3rd best PG on this team, and he doesn't get the ball to KAT with any more frequency than Teague or Rose. In fact, Tyus looks lost when he has to play extended minutes with the starters. Rubio was good enough at the rest of the game to not be a good shooter; Tyus isn't.
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Post by pagliatti on Nov 10, 2018 3:35:07 GMT -6
WCS 25 11/16 McGee 16 8/10 Marjanovic 10/9 3/8 4/4 Harrell 13 6/7 Nurkic 19 8/11 GSW- Doesn't really qualify KAT 13 5/13 vs no names Gobert 22 9/12 McGee 13 6/8
Now, Kat is a young guy and more touches would mean more raw production- mostly unneeded as they still have plenty of ammo- and less attention to detail.
It could be scheme related but a 39/19 game should be a win in the bloodbath fashion. We already called the "lack of help" through Big Al and KLove eras. He's better as was DMC, but you need to take priorities. They are enabling consistent production from very average players, a paved way to 120 points games.
This stuff remembers of the Cavs-Wolves game. Cavs played beautifully through several parts of the game but the Wolves prevailed, they just got what they needed when they had to. Incredible ball movement leading to a lot of gravity from KLove mobility just to have Butler look for KLove body in a layup attempt moments later. That's exhausting for teammates, what a load of precision thrown away in a couple seconds by barbarian ball. Of course you don't send KAT to the garbage bin because someone scored a hook shot in the 1st quarter but it should be analyzed why a clever guy like Thibs-make no mistake he can be wrong,misled or whatever but effort and knowledge are there- wouldn't kill pace, sit the starters or go into a temper tantrum. They are looking for ways to circumvent flaws but raw usage might just make the aforementioned issues a chronic condition.
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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 9:41:33 GMT -6
So if you were Glen, what would you pay Tyus next year? He will get paid by somebody, and I don't think it should be us. I know a lot of fans love the guy, but he is a very average basketball player. I'd pay Tyus 3-5 mil next year. He's not getting that from anybody else. Tyus needs to grow an offensive game especially finishing at the rim. I'd keep Tyus if possible.
I hope Jimmy hasn't poisoned his mind.
I think you're underestimating the market, but if we could keep him for that price it would probably be worth keeping him around. I think it's hard to tell right now. Last year, Dante Exum got $29 million over three years, and Kyle Anderson got $37 million over four. But there were some marginally talented PGs like Elfrid Payton and Shabazz Napier who took deals in the price range you list. I think it's more likely that he'll get something like three years at $20 million. Hell, Matthew Dellavedoa received $38 million over four years, so who knows what teams are willing to pay?
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Post by Nick K on Nov 11, 2018 10:50:21 GMT -6
I'd pay Tyus 3-5 mil next year. He's not getting that from anybody else. Tyus needs to grow an offensive game especially finishing at the rim. I'd keep Tyus if possible.
I hope Jimmy hasn't poisoned his mind.
I think you're underestimating the market, but if we could keep him for that price it would probably be worth keeping him around. I think it's hard to tell right now. Last year, Dante Exum got $29 million over three years, and Kyle Anderson got $37 million over four. But there were some marginally talented PGs like Elfrid Payton and Shabazz Napier who took deals in the price range you list. I think it's more likely that he'll get something like three years at $20 million. Hell, Matthew Dellavedoa received $38 million over four years, so who knows what teams are willing to pay? "I think you're underestimating the market."
I have a habit of doing that Boognish. :)
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