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Post by boognish on Nov 8, 2018 11:00:41 GMT -6
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to try and package Tyus with Butler to sweeten our return. We won't want to pay Tyus next year anyway, and he and Butler are best buds. Rose is playing great, and if he can stay healthy there is no reason that he can't be our PG with the 2nd unit.
Maybe something like Gordon/Tucker/2 draft picks for Tyus/Butler. Or Richardson/Winslow/Olynyk for Tyus/Butler.
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salty
Full Member
Posts: 185
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Post by salty on Nov 8, 2018 11:16:30 GMT -6
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to try and package Tyus with Butler to sweeten our return. We won't want to pay Tyus next year anyway, and he and Butler are best buds. Rose is playing great, and if he can stay healthy there is no reason that he can't be our PG with the 2nd unit. Maybe something like Gordon/Tucker/2 draft picks for Tyus/Butler. Or Richardson/Winslow/Olynyk for Tyus/Butler. I'd still rather rid ourselves of Teague and roll with Jones as the starter (not that he deserves it but at least we would know if he is worth resigning).
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Post by firethibs on Nov 8, 2018 11:19:23 GMT -6
More than just Rose....I think the way Tyus is playing makes him expendable.
Not sure how much of sweetner Tyus would be in a deal....But, it does make some sense to package him with JB
It's really a question for Glen Taylor though. I know Thibs won't want to pay Tyus next year...but its hard to know what happens with Tyus if/when Thibs is fired and some new energy/direction is brought in. I think getting a fresh start could really help Tyus. If Glen is going to keep Thibs around - then Tyus should be moved. If Glen is thinking of firing Thibs soon....then I might be a little more interested in keeping Tyus (assuming he wouldn't help get a bigger JB deal done)
I'd still prefer to fire thibs, move Teague and start working on finding our PG of the future. It's crazy to think that we have got lucky and found two unexpected gems (so far) in DRose & Josh O in the same year and our team is still a disaster.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 8, 2018 12:00:10 GMT -6
Derrick Rose's D rating (122) would be a record if it holds to 1000 minutes. Here's the all-time matador list: bkref.com/tiny/arbYFTyus has checked out because he was promised more minutes or a trade and neither have happened. Rose's contract is low risk and given he's playing "well" on offense, I'd try to find a taker for him if it were me running the org.
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Post by firethibs on Nov 8, 2018 12:09:04 GMT -6
Derrick Rose's D rating (122) would be a record if it holds to 1000 minutes. Here's the all-time matador list: bkref.com/tiny/arbYFTyus has checked out because he was promised more minutes or a trade and neither have happened. Rose's contract is low risk and given he's playing "well" on offense, I'd try to find a taker for him if it were me running the org. I would hope DRose will be a bit better on D if we stop throwing him out there to guard 2 guards for long periods of time
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Post by Scorched on Nov 8, 2018 12:32:59 GMT -6
Derrick Rose's D rating (122) would be a record if it holds to 1000 minutes. Here's the all-time matador list: bkref.com/tiny/arbYFTyus has checked out because he was promised more minutes or a trade and neither have happened. Rose's contract is low risk and given he's playing "well" on offense, I'd try to find a taker for him if it were me running the org. That's an interesting list. Some of the name made me say, who? Some of them I'm not even slightly surprised to see there. Some of the names I can't figure out, Joe Dumars and Arron Afflalo, I thought both of these guys were pretty highly regarded defenders. Maybe just bad years because they were/are near the end of their careers?
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 8, 2018 12:33:17 GMT -6
no. Drose will not stay healthy. Tyus will blossom with another coach who recognizes what he can do and gives him time. Keeping Drose over Tyus is a really bad move.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Nov 8, 2018 13:47:24 GMT -6
no. Drose will not stay healthy. Tyus will blossom with another coach who recognizes what he can do and gives him time. Keeping Drose over Tyus is a really bad move. This team is close to checking out with all the BS going on. Trading Jones and keeping Rose would be one colossal mistake.
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Post by tjstyles on Nov 8, 2018 14:10:14 GMT -6
Yeah, rolling with Rose and dumping Tyus would be a very bad decision for the Wolves...which means it will probably happen soon.
Rose is 30 years old and has averaged 42 games per season the last 6 seasons. Before that was his 39 games and ACL injury costing him a year and a half. He put up a career game and had to take the next night off with ankle pain. He is a glass cannon.
Besides that, Rose plays for Rose. The only player who is better on the court when Rose is on the court is Rose. The reason Rose does well here in MN is because Thibs is the only coach in the league who will put up with Rose's selfish and inefficient play. People who play like Rose need to hit their shots at an incredibly high rate to be effective. When Rose does this, he has a big night and people start chanting for Rose to be our PG going forward. Then, the other 90% of the time when he is shooting poorly, they point to the handful of good games and say we just need to be patient.
I have said this about a dozen times so far, but I will say it again. Towns is our franchise. We win or lose on Towns' game. Every player we bring in should be able to make Towns better. Rose doesn't know that Towns is on our team. Rose minimizes Towns. We need players who will feed off of Towns; not players that will use up possessions that should have been for Towns.
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Post by boognish on Nov 8, 2018 16:57:59 GMT -6
Tyus will want $10 million per starting next year, and may even get close to that on the free market. I do not think the Wolves will put that kind of money into him, especially when there are a lot of options for a backup PG. It has less to do with Rose than it does with getting value from a player who is likely to walk next year anyway.
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Post by levine on Nov 8, 2018 17:09:44 GMT -6
Tyus will want $10 million per starting next year, and may even get close to that on the free market. I do not think the Wolves will put that kind of money into him, especially when there are a lot of options for a backup PG. It has less to do with Rose than it does with getting value from a player who is likely to walk next year anyway. I love Tyus, but he's going to have to play a lot better than he has so far if he wants 10M/year.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 8, 2018 17:55:09 GMT -6
Derrick Rose's D rating (122) would be a record if it holds to 1000 minutes. Here's the all-time matador list: bkref.com/tiny/arbYFTyus has checked out because he was promised more minutes or a trade and neither have happened. Rose's contract is low risk and given he's playing "well" on offense, I'd try to find a taker for him if it were me running the org. That's an interesting list. Some of the name made me say, who? Some of them I'm not even slightly surprised to see there. Some of the names I can't figure out, Joe Dumars and Arron Afflalo, I thought both of these guys were pretty highly regarded defenders. Maybe just bad years because they were/are near the end of their careers?
Dumars' D didn't metric well in his career. Helped the frontcourt and Rodman were as good defensively as they were. www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html
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Post by firethibs on Nov 8, 2018 19:24:06 GMT -6
Tyus will want $10 million per starting next year, and may even get close to that on the free market. I do not think the Wolves will put that kind of money into him, especially when there are a lot of options for a backup PG. It has less to do with Rose than it does with getting value from a player who is likely to walk next year anyway. If the season continues the way its going....I think I'd want to be a big-time seller at the deadline. I'd be open to moving anyone not named Kat, Josh & whomever comes to us in the JB trade. If we could pick up any assets for Teague, Taj, Tyus, Drose, Toliver, etc - I think you'd have to be open to moving them.
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Post by wunderwolf on Nov 8, 2018 23:03:57 GMT -6
Worst thread/question I've seen since Rubechat.
Answer is NO.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 1:54:54 GMT -6
Worst thread/question I've seen since Rubechat. Answer is NO. So if you were Glen, what would you pay Tyus next year? He will get paid by somebody, and I don't think it should be us. I know a lot of fans love the guy, but he is a very average basketball player.
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Post by pagliatti on Nov 9, 2018 3:07:42 GMT -6
Too many variables to determine it right now. Teague and Rose are better overall players and then it depends on the former reestructuring his deal with an extension or just picking his option- something that only happens if Thibs stays IMO and it's not a given even under such scenario- and/or Rose is brought back at a premium salary which is hard to tell at the moment; he still has no market at all but things could evolve rapidly.
The thing with Tyus is either you beat the market or you don't care. Never pay backups, 7th and lower tier players should be always expendable and it is also healthy to maintain competition. Things like Gorgui regressing happen when you can't a) use resources as a slot or cap because you already invested too much at that position, b) the player gets into the "I made it" mentality. You always want some dudes with a foot out of the door and c) the coach has to play you even if he dies a bit inside just to invent a market for you.
There is the chance that more games into the season bring some other perspective to this whole development/fiasco. Some powehouses might fall in the meantime (bad signs already in HOU which undervalued the importance of muscle) and there are moving pieces in the team: Okogie's and Wiggins ceiling, more chapters in the Rose experiment, assessment of Cs getting better at Cs things or lackthereof. While everybody is looking at Jimmy Thibs remains patient, nobody should be safe.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 9, 2018 4:04:50 GMT -6
Tyus will want $10 million per starting next year, and may even get close to that on the free market. I do not think the Wolves will put that kind of money into him, especially when there are a lot of options for a backup PG. It has less to do with Rose than it does with getting value from a player who is likely to walk next year anyway. I love Tyus, but he's going to have to play a lot better than he has so far if he wants 10M/year. At this point, Tyus isn't getting $10 mil per year. He's probably MLE, at best, at this point...and more likely to be a 2 year/$10-$12 mil ($5 or $6 mil per) type deal. If he sticks on the roster through the season and Thibs is fired, Tyus may actually come back under the new regime.
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Post by wunderwolf on Nov 9, 2018 6:34:39 GMT -6
Worst thread/question I've seen since Rubechat. Answer is NO. So if you were Glen, what would you pay Tyus next year? He will get paid by somebody, and I don't think it should be us. I know a lot of fans love the guy, but he is a very average basketball player. It's not that I think Tyus is a star, it's that making any long term roster decisions based on D-Rose is foolish.
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Post by boognish on Nov 9, 2018 8:33:46 GMT -6
So if you were Glen, what would you pay Tyus next year? He will get paid by somebody, and I don't think it should be us. I know a lot of fans love the guy, but he is a very average basketball player. It's not that I think Tyus is a star, it's that making any long term roster decisions based on D-Rose is foolish. Perhaps. I just know that there are teams like the Suns and Pelicans that have shown interest in him in the past. Knowing that he'll likely be gone after this year, and seeing how competent Rose has been this year, makes me wonder if he might be the piece that entices a team to bite on a bigger scale trade. A proven vet in Jimmy and a young PG with some apparently underutilized talent could make some teams look past the potential risk that comes with just Butler alone.
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Post by tjstyles on Nov 9, 2018 10:40:53 GMT -6
Too many variables to determine it right now. Teague and Rose are better overall players and then it depends on the former reestructuring his deal with an extension or just picking his option- something that only happens if Thibs stays IMO and it's not a given even under such scenario- and/or Rose is brought back at a premium salary which is hard to tell at the moment; he still has no market at all but things could evolve rapidly. The thing with Tyus is either you beat the market or you don't care. Never pay backups, 7th and lower tier players should be always expendable and it is also healthy to maintain competition. Things like Gorgui regressing happen when you can't a) use resources as a slot or cap because you already invested too much at that position, b) the player gets into the "I made it" mentality. You always want some dudes with a foot out of the door and c) the coach has to play you even if he dies a bit inside just to invent a market for you. There is the chance that more games into the season bring some other perspective to this whole development/fiasco. Some powehouses might fall in the meantime (bad signs already in HOU which undervalued the importance of muscle) and there are moving pieces in the team: Okogie's and Wiggins ceiling, more chapters in the Rose experiment, assessment of Cs getting better at Cs things or lackthereof. While everybody is looking at Jimmy Thibs remains patient, nobody should be safe. This I think is the crux of this conversation. I cannot disagree with this statement more. Both Teague and Rose are very narrow players. They have a single skillset they are good at, and everything else is well below average. Tyus is a better defender, better passer, better play maker, and (until the shooting woes this season), a better shooter. Teague and Rose are both better at attacking the basket, but Tyus is, by far, the better overall player. Take the assist rate of Tyus vs. Teague (cause Rose isn't even in the same discussion as either). Teague has a higher assist rate, so you might ask what I am talking about saying Tyus is the better passer and playmaker. The difference is that Tyus is very close to Teague and Tyus plays mainly with the league's lowest scoring bench while Teague has been playing with one of the leagues' highest scoring starting 5. Assist ratio is highly affected by who you play with, and Teague has Butler and Towns to pass to while Tyus has had players like ShaMu and Brandon Rush to pass to. When either Teague or Rose gets Towns 20 shots in a game, I will maybe, possibly, consider either of them being a better choice over Tyus. But, until then, I don't want either of those players controlling the offense of the Timberwolves.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 9, 2018 10:49:59 GMT -6
I'd rather have a slightly more balanced roster financially where I'm paying solid role players a reasonable salary than have players who have no business earning a max getting paid max money or a backup 4/5 making about $5 mil more than what would be fair market value for his skillset, even if he were starting.
Owners and most basketball front offices are idiots on asset management (which is what a roster essentially is).
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Post by pagliatti on Nov 9, 2018 11:37:01 GMT -6
Too many variables to determine it right now. Teague and Rose are better overall players and then it depends on the former reestructuring his deal with an extension or just picking his option- something that only happens if Thibs stays IMO and it's not a given even under such scenario- and/or Rose is brought back at a premium salary which is hard to tell at the moment; he still has no market at all but things could evolve rapidly. The thing with Tyus is either you beat the market or you don't care. Never pay backups, 7th and lower tier players should be always expendable and it is also healthy to maintain competition. Things like Gorgui regressing happen when you can't a) use resources as a slot or cap because you already invested too much at that position, b) the player gets into the "I made it" mentality. You always want some dudes with a foot out of the door and c) the coach has to play you even if he dies a bit inside just to invent a market for you. There is the chance that more games into the season bring some other perspective to this whole development/fiasco. Some powehouses might fall in the meantime (bad signs already in HOU which undervalued the importance of muscle) and there are moving pieces in the team: Okogie's and Wiggins ceiling, more chapters in the Rose experiment, assessment of Cs getting better at Cs things or lackthereof. While everybody is looking at Jimmy Thibs remains patient, nobody should be safe. This I think is the crux of this conversation. I cannot disagree with this statement more. Both Teague and Rose are very narrow players. They have a single skillset they are good at, and everything else is well below average. Tyus is a better defender, better passer, better play maker, and (until the shooting woes this season), a better shooter. Teague and Rose are both better at attacking the basket, but Tyus is, by far, the better overall player. Take the assist rate of Tyus vs. Teague (cause Rose isn't even in the same discussion as either). Teague has a higher assist rate, so you might ask what I am talking about saying Tyus is the better passer and playmaker. The difference is that Tyus is very close to Teague and Tyus plays mainly with the league's lowest scoring bench while Teague has been playing with one of the leagues' highest scoring starting 5. Assist ratio is highly affected by who you play with, and Teague has Butler and Towns to pass to while Tyus has had players like ShaMu and Brandon Rush to pass to. When either Teague or Rose gets Towns 20 shots in a game, I will maybe, possibly, consider either of them being a better choice over Tyus. But, until then, I don't want either of those players controlling the offense of the Timberwolves. I don't like Rose style and sometimes Teague's style leaves you thinking he does not move the needle at all but both of them bring something to the table. The former creates penetration and put a lot of pressure over defense, the latter brings a lot of consistency statswise through seasons. Tyus, through several seasons, has shown he is a low mistakes, nice effort guy. Like a bunch backup PGs before him. Once they get paid their level is revisited, the Luke Ridnours/Ramon Sessions/Bareas/Dellavedovas/Mike James of the world. He can shoot but isn't able to force shot situations, he can really pick pockets but won't dry anyone through a whole match, terrible in switches- Rose is getting murdered but he is still finding how much is left and also playing a lot of SG- and he is soft at either rim. There is an issue with analytics. You just can't put under the same terms a guy who clashes with defenses and plays to find fissures- even if that clash doesn't involve penetration as Steph or Durant otherworldly range- and guys who will perform when the situation fits them picking their battles the whole time. Teague is a bit in the middle as a guy who will get his but allows you to play 2 or 3 guys over him in the pecking order. From what I have seen from Tyus there is not any confirmation of ability to sustain offense or 20+mpg of solid defense out of his element in the long run. He might be a spark plug sometimes and a decent backup PG most of the time. In respect to the KAT consideration it should depend on whether a team should go through him as a first option. He needs to have that on him and he needs to impose his will to get there. Would Anthony Davis be in this situation? Is it the right call to put the offense through him when he is still improving at many, many aspects of the game? When I see Marc Gasol I see plenty success and not every ball needs to be in his hands or fly to the rim to impact the game. It might be the correct call to have KAT concentrated in other duties as there aren't many examples of shooting Cs getting accomplishments- Embiid has similar issues and guys like Love or Cousins are not at their highest. Most elite players in this league have multiple rabbits in their hat and KAT still has some key fundamentals off, starting probably from what you should expect from a supermaxed big. Your best players should be enablers for the rest of the team, creating gravity and killing confidence with their Derek Fishers or Javale McGees filling the statsheet. When they only hold the ball more time or just take more possessions you have the Wolves or Wizards. In the end it might not be a bad jedi mind trick all the usage through Rose regardless of sustainability or even efficiency because you don't really want the two young guys hiding behind empty stats games. You want them analyzing the game enough to find aspects where they could bring value. They passed space cadet-making buckets in the NBA on a regular basis- and now starts the real game which is to read the game well enough to create value, particularly to affect the game the 90% of the time when you don't smell the ball at all.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 9, 2018 11:43:15 GMT -6
Worst thread/question I've seen since Rubechat. Answer is NO. So if you were Glen, what would you pay Tyus next year? He will get paid by somebody, and I don't think it should be us. I know a lot of fans love the guy, but he is a very average basketball player. I'd pay Tyus 3-5 mil next year. He's not getting that from anybody else. Tyus needs to grow an offensive game especially finishing at the rim. I'd keep Tyus if possible.
I hope Jimmy hasn't poisoned his mind.
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Post by pagliatti on Nov 9, 2018 11:54:16 GMT -6
I'd rather have a slightly more balanced roster financially where I'm paying solid role players a reasonable salary than have players who have no business earning a max getting paid max money or a backup 4/5 making about $5 mil more than what would be fair market value for his skillset, even if he were starting. Owners and most basketball front offices are idiots on asset management (which is what a roster essentially is). Yes, love depth too. Your point about not overpaying is well taken, in fact I would circumvent the rule paying company men or guys with huge potential on short deals (Jabari Parker style minus being Jabari Parker). However the league is really about name recognition right now so I have doubts about going with a sort of linear roster. Anyway I fully agree on not being overzealous resigning your own talent. The NBA has a severe issue with overhyping and aversion to risk. Your jab at Taj is where we might disagree because his contract is for two years. He is movable, with a contract high enough to control his rights and the chance to include the amount in future conversations-overpay now, get him back cheaper later, not a given but reasonable in the right scenario which seems to be botched now. Teague I agree was an overpay but he had the option to be the missing piece. KAT/Gorgui bad performance at the same several elements of the game-both make questionable decisions with the ball, have defensive major lapses and don't really bring a supermotor the whole time- stunted the whole best case scenario. Of course it was Thibs who retained Gorgui, cap jump and all. IMO another player who was ranked from what he brought instead of the other way around.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 9, 2018 12:23:34 GMT -6
It was more at Dieng than Taj given Taj starts but I'll apply it to Taj at amount, just not length.
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