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Post by darko on Sept 15, 2023 12:51:49 GMT -6
This might seem kind of crazy, but maybe look at his stats? He shot 42/29 in the G League and then stunk it up in summer league as a sophomore. He hasn't been good against non-NBA talent and you need to see it to be sure? He can't shoot and doesn't have good size, length, or the athleticism of an NBA wing. I'm not sure how he fits into "the mold of a low usage guy next to Ant". Like not at all. Also, if a guy is only going to pass the ball and "stand in the corner" on offense, he better be SPECTACULAR at defense or ball handling or something. The only thing that would tell me less about basketball than NBA regular season data is watching summer league. I love what a lightening rod saying I'd like to see what Moore looks like is now. We spent quite a few games watching D-Lo, Forbes, Rivers, Reid, I think we can stomach giving him some run. It will be tough to get him minutes without injuries as is, so part of why I hold tight on adding another guard immediately. J-Mac, Nowell, Reid were all celebrated "great finds". Most are third string dudes at best. I forget Culver and Nowell were the same year, and that came from one of the most heralded NBA scouts of all-time! He had experience! They were all given way more rope (among fans) than this guy. It's so interesting to see who gets buzz around these parts, is there a shared google doc somewhere I'm missing?
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Post by levine on Sept 15, 2023 12:55:01 GMT -6
What has Moore Jr shown you that makes him a rotational player? He had that nice stint defending Ja, but otherwise he's yet to show he can shoot, pass or make good decisions at the NBA level. I'm saying I want to see it. Can he defend, move the ball smart/efficiently (not meaning prime initiator), and stand in a corner? He fits the mold of a low usage guy next to Ant and in a perfect world McD. I haven't seen enough either way, but I did watch a lot of Forbes, Rivers, and D-Lo to know I would have rather tried Moore. He makes more sense than whatever that summer league dude guys were fans of. Whether he can grow into that at the NBA level we'll see. Most likely not a starter, but I think it's possible he can be a utility/rotation guard. It's funnier to me to rule it out given how little we've seen, but he certainly isn't as flashy as say Naz or whatever punk iso dweeb people like. Obviously very, very small sample size, but other than defend a bit in one game, he misses all your criteria. He's slow to move the ball when he gets it (he's a grenade thrower) and hasn't hit shots. As far as standing in the corner, 41% of his 3s have been corner shots. And he's hit 14% of those. I'm not saying I'd cut him, but he has a long way to go to be in a rotation. If we follow his career trajectory, he'll probably be pretty good in the G League this year, suck with the big club in 2 years and maybe be a rotational guy in 3 years. He feels to me like a guy who maxes out at being able to do a little of everything, but maybe nothing at a true NBA level.
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Post by levine on Sept 15, 2023 12:56:09 GMT -6
I love what a lightening rod saying I'd like to see what Moore looks like is now. We spent quite a few games watching D-Lo, Forbes, Rivers, Reid, I think we can stomach giving him some run. The lightning rod isn't saying you want to see him play. Its making a false comparison that our ONLY choices are Moore or D-Lo, Forbes or Rivers.
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Post by darko on Sept 15, 2023 12:58:03 GMT -6
Maybe we'll see how it goes.
I assume on nights Conley is resting NAW is the second back court mate right now, unless we go Dire. Ant, McD, Slo or Reid, Kat, Gobert.
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Post by darko on Sept 15, 2023 12:58:38 GMT -6
The lightning rod isn't saying you want to see him play. Its making a false comparison that our ONLY choices are Moore or D-Lo, Forbes or Rivers. It's far and away the most controversial thing I've ever posted here. I don't disagree technically playing him would not be our only choice, but for some reason last year, those stink line-ups appeared to be our only choice.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 15, 2023 15:11:54 GMT -6
It's why NAW and Moore Jr can likely fill those back out "point guard minutes", especially with Kyle or Kat eating in that second group. I will be interested to see where Naz is most used, to me it almost makes more sense for him to play next to Rudy, with Kat dominating that second unit, but will be fun to see how it all works. How much will we see of Reid and Kat, versus Reid and Gobert, versus Gobert and Kat. We keep saying this team has five centers, but I do think Kat and Naz are closer to fours than fives, unless you have a defensive minded four that can play next to Kat, which is why Ibaka would have been a great fit circa 2016-17. I agree. I have a hard time seeing Naz as a center. His skills are so much more PF. Kat can do both.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 15, 2023 16:05:25 GMT -6
J-Mac, Nowell, Reid were all celebrated "great finds". Most are third string dudes at best. I forget Culver and Nowell were the same year, and that came from one of the most heralded NBA scouts of all-time! He had experience! They were all given way more rope (among fans) than this guy. It's so interesting to see who gets buzz around these parts, is there a shared google doc somewhere I'm missing? I think it's because they had stretches of NBA play where they produced after playing well in the G League. Moore hasn't shown anything in any kind of NBA capacity. The only thing that would tell me less about basketball than NBA regular season data is watching summer league. I think I need to be done interacting with you. It's just not good for me. Data from an 82 game season isn't helpful? It's either trolling or arrogance and either one isn't worth it. This site unfortunately seems to be gasping. I have such fond memories of the old Strib site and then migrating over here when that went away. So many of the old posters are gone now and the traffic is way down. Darko is the major contributor now and I'm not sure it's healthy for me to keep discussing how awful the league is now and how stats mean nothing. Canis is big, but just hate the format of the blog w/comments. Oh well. FWIW, there's a fairly strong correlation between poor summer league play being predictive of NBA success. Playing well in SL doesn't guarantee anything, but playing poorly has shown to be pretty damning.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 15, 2023 16:13:41 GMT -6
Dunc'd On did a pod on rookie extensions and it was really interesting. The new 5 year option was a wrinkle with different angles to consider.
Nate played the players and I think they finally agreed on 4 years for $110M. Feldman was the Wolves and wanted 5 years, but Nate was adamant that it would need to be 5 years $150M to do 5 years.
FWIW, Vassell got 5/137.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 15, 2023 16:15:40 GMT -6
Real GM Radio did a NW Division pod. Hope this link works: megaphone.link/NSM8320181590Locke (Jazz radio guy and big podcast guy) and Adam Mares (Nuggets) were the guests and both were REALLY high on the Wolves as the 2nd team in the division.
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Post by darko on Sept 15, 2023 16:22:46 GMT -6
Maybe Moore will stink who knows, but it's always pretty dead here in the summer.
I think a lot of board traffic was replaced with social media (mainly twitter) as far as fandom goes, but if games are back and Wolves good might get some people chiming in.
Canis is the same right now.
I'll chill on the stat trashing, but good idea to take a break until games get going. I will do my best to stick to in game comments. I would prefer if others jumped in as well.
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Post by levine on Sept 15, 2023 16:31:53 GMT -6
Dunc'd On did a pod on rookie extensions and it was really interesting. The new 5 year option was a wrinkle with different angles to consider. Nate played the players and I think they finally agreed on 4 years for $110M. Feldman was the Wolves and wanted 5 years, but Nate was adamant that it would need to be 5 years $150M to do 5 years. FWIW, Vassell got 5/137. I really like Vassell, but I would have zero issue paying McDaniels 2.6M more per season.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 16, 2023 13:03:15 GMT -6
Dunc'd On did a pod on rookie extensions and it was really interesting. The new 5 year option was a wrinkle with different angles to consider. Nate played the players and I think they finally agreed on 4 years for $110M. Feldman was the Wolves and wanted 5 years, but Nate was adamant that it would need to be 5 years $150M to do 5 years. FWIW, Vassell got 5/137. I really like Vassell, but I would have zero issue paying McDaniels 2.6M more per season. Jaden has the higher ceiling being the better defender, but Vassell is the better offensive player. I agree though, if it's that close you surely make the deal. The bigger discussion point is the overall size of the deal and the 4 vs 5 year discussion. Players are going to ask for more for teams to lock them up for an extra year. They talked a lot about how the new TV money could make these longer deals more of a bargain if the cap goes up 10% a year. I hope we get a deal done before the season. I don't want to have to match some 3 or 4 year deal with a player option
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Post by darko on Sept 19, 2023 10:01:00 GMT -6
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 20, 2023 7:32:28 GMT -6
I like it but KG is wrong about one BIG thing: KAT needs to step back. This is what I've been saying now for awhile. Ant is 1A. If KAT doesnt understand that Ant is 1A....the point needs to be made very clear to him. Yes they can co-exist WONDERFULLY as long as they understand that.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 20, 2023 9:28:52 GMT -6
I like it but KG is wrong about one BIG thing: KAT needs to step back. This is what I've been saying now for awhile. Ant is 1A. If KAT doesnt understand that Ant is 1A....the point needs to be made very clear to him. Yes they can co-exist WONDERFULLY as long as they understand that. I really think the 1a and 1b is a fan thing. I don't think Kat or Ant think about it that way. They both are great players and each know that. They support each other as teammates and are happy for each others success. They both want to win and share the glory. I don't want Kat feeling subservient to Ant. That would only take away from his game.
I'm with KG all day on this.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Sept 20, 2023 9:44:29 GMT -6
I really think the 1a and 1b is a fan thing. I don't think Kat or Ant think about it that way. They both are great players and each know that. They support each other as teammates and are happy for each others success. They both want to win and share the glory. I don't want Kat feeling subservient to Ant. That would only take away from his game. For the most part I agree. I could actually make the case that KAT should be prioritized a little more than Ant during generic regular season minutes. KAT is a highly efficient offensive player and more efficient than Ant. If you're not using that, then his value decreases. Where I do think you need a clear pecking order is in the high leverage situations like closing the game. It's clear that things should flow through Ant in those situations. Outside of that though, I think you're right that they're both good offensive players and that they realize how they can help each other. Ideally Ant will grow as a playmaker so that while the offense runs through him he'll be drawing the attention that allows KAT to take advantage. Ant continues to develop that high leverage game and can take over when needed. I guess the aspect of this would be the benefit KAT would get of just letting Ant have the public mantle of best player. That's where he struggles. He should focus on just playing basketball. Whether KAT and Ant care or not, the pressure of being the 1A (even if that's only in the fans eyes) is something that KAT hasn't navigated well. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like KAT is on board with that given what he's said this summer. It seems like that's what most have a problem with.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 20, 2023 13:47:53 GMT -6
I really think the 1a and 1b is a fan thing. I don't think Kat or Ant think about it that way. They both are great players and each know that. They support each other as teammates and are happy for each others success. They both want to win and share the glory. I don't want Kat feeling subservient to Ant. That would only take away from his game. For the most part I agree. I could actually make the case that KAT should be prioritized a little more than Ant during generic regular season minutes. KAT is a highly efficient offensive player and more efficient than Ant. If you're not using that, then his value decreases. Where I do think you need a clear pecking order is in the high leverage situations like closing the game. It's clear that things should flow through Ant in those situations. Outside of that though, I think you're right that they're both good offensive players and that they realize how they can help each other. Ideally Ant will grow as a playmaker so that while the offense runs through him he'll be drawing the attention that allows KAT to take advantage. Ant continues to develop that high leverage game and can take over when needed. I guess the aspect of this would be the benefit KAT would get of just letting Ant have the public mantle of best player. That's where he struggles. He should focus on just playing basketball. Whether KAT and Ant care or not, the pressure of being the 1A (even if that's only in the fans eyes) is something that KAT hasn't navigated well. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like KAT is on board with that given what he's said this summer. It seems like that's what most have a problem with.This....is the issue in a nutshell. I dont believe we'll see the best Ant until he's given the keys. And the keys either have to come from Towns....or preferably Finchy. Towns is Robin. Robin saves the day also and is important. But Towns has had 7 years? to wear the Batman mask....and he either doesnt see the bat signal all the time or is so bad at directions he cant find the crime scene. But he's no Batman....even though he's talented enough to be Superman.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 20, 2023 14:22:34 GMT -6
For the most part I agree. I could actually make the case that KAT should be prioritized a little more than Ant during generic regular season minutes. KAT is a highly efficient offensive player and more efficient than Ant. If you're not using that, then his value decreases. Where I do think you need a clear pecking order is in the high leverage situations like closing the game. It's clear that things should flow through Ant in those situations. Outside of that though, I think you're right that they're both good offensive players and that they realize how they can help each other. Ideally Ant will grow as a playmaker so that while the offense runs through him he'll be drawing the attention that allows KAT to take advantage. Ant continues to develop that high leverage game and can take over when needed. I guess the aspect of this would be the benefit KAT would get of just letting Ant have the public mantle of best player. That's where he struggles. He should focus on just playing basketball. Whether KAT and Ant care or not, the pressure of being the 1A (even if that's only in the fans eyes) is something that KAT hasn't navigated well. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like KAT is on board with that given what he's said this summer. It seems like that's what most have a problem with.This....is the issue in a nutshell. I dont believe we'll see the best Ant until he's given the keys. And the keys either have to come from Towns....or preferably Finchy. Towns is Robin. Robin saves the day also and is important. But Towns has had 7 years? to wear the Batman mask....and he either doesnt see the bat signal all the time or is so bad at directions he cant find the crime scene. But he's no Batman....even though he's talented enough to be Superman. The point you miss my friend is Ant already has the keys. Towns too. This Batman Robin thing is a fantasy. Garnett was right. Listen to what he said about he and Pierce. Each were equal but had qualities that the other did not. Those guys were 1a and 1a(2). Separate but equal.
Who came up with this public mantle of being the best player? And if that's even important to either one. I've never heard Towns complain about that. He knows Ant is a great player and he wants him to get even better. But Kat knows he's a great player too. Nothing wrong with that.
Just like KG and PP. They didn't care about any of that crap. They were all about winning. Kat and Ant are all about winning too.
I think that writers make this stuff up just to have something to write about. Just like us trading Kat. Unless we got overwhelming value that wasn't going to happen. It sure got a lot of clicks though. Just what they wanted.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 20, 2023 14:31:09 GMT -6
I really think the 1a and 1b is a fan thing. I don't think Kat or Ant think about it that way. They both are great players and each know that. They support each other as teammates and are happy for each others success. They both want to win and share the glory. I don't want Kat feeling subservient to Ant. That would only take away from his game. For the most part I agree. I could actually make the case that KAT should be prioritized a little more than Ant during generic regular season minutes. KAT is a highly efficient offensive player and more efficient than Ant. If you're not using that, then his value decreases. Where I do think you need a clear pecking order is in the high leverage situations like closing the game. It's clear that things should flow through Ant in those situations. Outside of that though, I think you're right that they're both good offensive players and that they realize how they can help each other. Ideally Ant will grow as a playmaker so that while the offense runs through him he'll be drawing the attention that allows KAT to take advantage. Ant continues to develop that high leverage game and can take over when needed. I guess the aspect of this would be the benefit KAT would get of just letting Ant have the public mantle of best player. That's where he struggles. He should focus on just playing basketball. Whether KAT and Ant care or not, the pressure of being the 1A (even if that's only in the fans eyes) is something that KAT hasn't navigated well. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like KAT is on board with that given what he's said this summer. It seems like that's what most have a problem with. I agree with a lot of that. Why does there have to be a public mantle? There wasn't one with KG and PP. This is both their team. Was it Magic's team or Kareem? It was neither.....it was both.
Maybe I missed it xrayspecs but I don't remember reading anything about Kat being unhappy with this role stuff except if he were to be underused. If so, I understand that and don't blame him. He and Ant are the perfect combo and both can be king of the hill.
Plus, Ant and Kat are good buddies. They both are the others best supporters.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 20, 2023 14:35:50 GMT -6
Regardless, we're just a couple of weeks from some real NBA action!!
I keep thinking about our new bench and how good it might be.
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Post by cory on Sept 20, 2023 14:48:41 GMT -6
This....is the issue in a nutshell. I dont believe we'll see the best Ant until he's given the keys. And the keys either have to come from Towns....or preferably Finchy. Towns is Robin. Robin saves the day also and is important. But Towns has had 7 years? to wear the Batman mask....and he either doesnt see the bat signal all the time or is so bad at directions he cant find the crime scene. But he's no Batman....even though he's talented enough to be Superman. The point you miss my friend is Ant already has the keys. Towns too. This Batman Robin thing is a fantasy. Garnett was right. Listen to what he said about he and Pierce. Each were equal but had qualities that the other did not. Those guys were 1a and 1a(2). Separate but equal.
Who came up with this public mantle of being the best player? And if that's even important to either one. I've never heard Towns complain about that. He knows Ant is a great player and he wants him to get even better. But Kat knows he's a great player too. Nothing wrong with that.
Just like KG and PP. They didn't care about any of that crap. They were all about winning. Kat and Ant are all about winning too.
I think that writers make this stuff up just to have something to write about. Just like us trading Kat. Unless we got overwhelming value that wasn't going to happen. It sure got a lot of clicks though. Just what they wanted.
This is just not understanding the humans in this situation. KG was one of the most selfless superstars of all time and his game reflected that through his numbers and mostly through his defensive effort and intensity every single game. KAT is honestly a 180 degree personality from KG from everything I have seen from him. He'll sure give you a great quote to make himself sound humble and a team player though. It just isn't backed up by his actual play or the bulk of other quotes for him desperately pleading to be recognized as the greatest shooter of all time or one of the all time greats who will change the game. He's on another planet than KG was honestly in terms of what they value and want people to see from them. KG didn't give a f--- about anything besides winning. Watch the John Thompson interview. That's not KAT.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 20, 2023 18:10:56 GMT -6
The point you miss my friend is Ant already has the keys. Towns too. This Batman Robin thing is a fantasy. Garnett was right. Listen to what he said about he and Pierce. Each were equal but had qualities that the other did not. Those guys were 1a and 1a(2). Separate but equal.
Who came up with this public mantle of being the best player? And if that's even important to either one. I've never heard Towns complain about that. He knows Ant is a great player and he wants him to get even better. But Kat knows he's a great player too. Nothing wrong with that.
Just like KG and PP. They didn't care about any of that crap. They were all about winning. Kat and Ant are all about winning too.
I think that writers make this stuff up just to have something to write about. Just like us trading Kat. Unless we got overwhelming value that wasn't going to happen. It sure got a lot of clicks though. Just what they wanted.
This is just not understanding the humans in this situation. KG was one of the most selfless superstars of all time and his game reflected that through his numbers and mostly through his defensive effort and intensity every single game. KAT is honestly a 180 degree personality from KG from everything I have seen from him. He'll sure give you a great quote to make himself sound humble and a team player though. It just isn't backed up by his actual play or the bulk of other quotes for him desperately pleading to be recognized as the greatest shooter of all time or one of the all time greats who will change the game. He's on another planet than KG was honestly in terms of what they value and want people to see from them. KG didn't give a f--- about anything besides winning. Watch the John Thompson interview. That's not KAT. I think you are reading way too much into this Cory. Plus your real dislike of Towns colors your view. I agree with your KG take for sure. But could it possibly be that you misunderstand where Towns is coming from when he makes those comments? Or the context of which given?
BTW, His career numbers pts, rebs, shooting %, are among the best to ever play for his position. If he feels he's being disrespected no wonder he speaks out.
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Post by darko on Sept 21, 2023 8:44:12 GMT -6
This....is the issue in a nutshell. I dont believe we'll see the best Ant until he's given the keys. And the keys either have to come from Towns....or preferably Finchy. Towns is Robin. Robin saves the day also and is important. But Towns has had 7 years? to wear the Batman mask....and he either doesnt see the bat signal all the time or is so bad at directions he cant find the crime scene. But he's no Batman....even though he's talented enough to be Superman. It is canon that in some iterations Robin becomes Batman! Also an Elseworlds tale where Clark Kent is Batman. It's actually really cool. But again, for me this is about their skills are different, and compliment each other very well. If it becomes an issue it's much more likely to come with duos like Brown/Tatum, Mitchell/Garland, where they're skills are some what duplicative. I prefer the one stud big, and one stud perimeter guy, KG/Marbury, Duncan/Parker, Kobe/Shaq, Jokic/Murray. But in the two initiator world, that's shifted. Although when you look at who's won chips, has it? I guess that Toronto team maybe with Siakam and Leonard, both ginormous wings. To me the only way it is an issue is if we're still debating if Kat should be point guard. Late game, initiate with Ant, if teams load up and take that away Robin will find the ball! Ideally McD can grow into Robin as well. Jordan/Pippen were two stud wings, but Pippen does not get enough credit for doing the dirty work, and Pippen's playmaking was way ahead of McD to this point. It would have been cool to see what a Pippen centric team might have looked like.
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Post by darko on Sept 21, 2023 10:25:31 GMT -6
#Wolvescontentback
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Post by darko on Sept 21, 2023 10:26:03 GMT -6
Prepare to soar.
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