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Post by XRaySpecs on Mar 31, 2024 11:57:09 GMT -6
I'm not sure this will be resolved by NEXT years finals. This wont be quick. Seems like they had agreed to arbitration beforehand so shouldn't that speed it up? An arbitrator reviews the info which does take some time, but then they make their decision. It was my understanding that agreeing to arbitration makes suing afterwards unlikely as the odds of winning go down a lot.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Mar 31, 2024 12:04:44 GMT -6
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Post by tmirvin on Mar 31, 2024 13:45:35 GMT -6
Lo/Rod didn't buy this team to be 40% limited partners. Who wants to invest with a team that has a snake for an owner? Glen will be dead before he finds a buyer that will keep the team in MN especially at these elevated prices. Money isn't cheap anymore. That's a huge consideration. Yep. I really believe that IF Glen gets the team that the next owner will move them. Or at least attempt to. Once Glen gets it I dont think he'll sell it. He will pass and his family, who doesnt want the team, will be selling and they wont care if it stays in Minnesota or not. The ability to own a sports team has now fallen out of the realm of possibility for the very wealthy and now only the richest of the rich are able to do it. We dont have many of those people. The odds of the team staying long term are very small if Glen wins. Which reminds me: as a side note to this I dont think the value of the teams will continue to rise like they have been because of exactly what I said above. I think the values are hitting a point where the number of people who can afford them are getting so small that they cant raise much more. The fact that this team went from 2 billion to 3 billion in 3 years is crazy. (And yes the value was closer to 2 billion when LoRod bought in..which shows the deal Glen was willing to give to keep the team here). I read that at the time of the sale, the value of the wolves was closer to $2.5B. it was according to sporttrac or something like that. Phoenix sold for $4B, which isn't really a hot bed for basketball. Sure, it's a bigger city but it's not LA or NY. Glen probably looked them in the eye and shook their hands after getting confirmation that they wouldn't move them out of Minnesota before he agreed to the heavily discounted price. But really, I think I read at the time that glen had a price in mind before his meeting with them. If that's true, it's not like they fleeced him, they agreed to his number.
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Post by jojo on Mar 31, 2024 13:59:33 GMT -6
It’s a little disingenuous to compare franchise values from Phoenix LA and Brooklyn with Minnesota. I think Utah Jazz was sold the year before the deal for roughly the same amount. And Glen to his credit stipulated the team needed to stay in Minnesota. Which was always going to suppress the price. The irony is he found the perfect guys who were willing to invest in the team and the city. So suddenly he’s all about the money instead of keeping the team in Minnesota? He’s 83 and a billionaire with conservative spending habits- not like it’s going to impact his lifestyle.
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Post by RAHchills on Mar 31, 2024 22:08:34 GMT -6
I've been curious about the correlation between market size and team value so I put a data set together and learned that there is a .61 correlation between Metro Area Population size and NBA team value... with the Wolves value relative to other teams' values being one of the outliers in the league. My hunch is that Glen's inability to put a competitive product together for nearly two decades has made the Wolves a complete value buy based on market population. Data Setdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lhZ6EqI8c3mAt1PCp3xLL9N12jbsBEK_fXNvkdaXDPg/edit?usp=sharing
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Post by quinn on Apr 1, 2024 9:39:41 GMT -6
I've been curious about the correlation between market size and team value so I put a data set together and learned that there is a .61 correlation between Metro Area Population size and NBA team value... with the Wolves value relative to other teams' values being one of the outliers in the league. My hunch is that Glen's inability to put a competitive product together for nearly two decades has made the Wolves a complete value buy based on market population. Data Setdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lhZ6EqI8c3mAt1PCp3xLL9N12jbsBEK_fXNvkdaXDPg/edit?usp=sharing This is super helpful. Thanks for putting that in here. I think Lore and A-Rod said about as much when they originally bought the team that it was such a value buy that it was almost too good to be true. I think MSP is something like the 12th biggest media market as well with a good amount of Fortune 500 companies in the area. The success of the Vikings should be an indicator that financial success here is highly likely if you can put together a stable winning team. Glen absolutely cratered, or at least hasn't run the team in a way that's helped the Wolves reach their full value. Glen has failed as an owner. Side note, Simmons and Russillo were talking about the worst owners in NBA history on their most recent pod. Simmons had Glen ranked 4th worst all time. Only owners he had that were worse than Glen were Donald Sterling, Robert Sarver, and Ted Stepien. It was a pyramid structure with Donald Sterling being 1 of 1. Sarver and Stepien the next level. Then Glen, MJ, and Howard Schultz.
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Post by kingsxman on Apr 1, 2024 11:44:52 GMT -6
I've been curious about the correlation between market size and team value so I put a data set together and learned that there is a .61 correlation between Metro Area Population size and NBA team value... with the Wolves value relative to other teams' values being one of the outliers in the league. My hunch is that Glen's inability to put a competitive product together for nearly two decades has made the Wolves a complete value buy based on market population. Data Setdocs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lhZ6EqI8c3mAt1PCp3xLL9N12jbsBEK_fXNvkdaXDPg/edit?usp=sharing This is super helpful. Thanks for putting that in here. I think Lore and A-Rod said about as much when they originally bought the team that it was such a value buy that it was almost too good to be true. I think MSP is something like the 12th biggest media market as well with a good amount of Fortune 500 companies in the area. The success of the Vikings should be an indicator that financial success here is highly likely if you can put together a stable winning team. Glen absolutely cratered, or at least hasn't run the team in a way that's helped the Wolves reach their full value. Glen has failed as an owner. Side note, Simmons and Russillo were talking about the worst owners in NBA history on their most recent pod. Simmons had Glen ranked 4th worst all time. Only owners he had that were worse than Glen were Donald Sterling, Robert Sarver, and Ted Stepien. It was a pyramid structure with Donald Sterling being 1 of 1. Sarver and Stepien the next level. Then Glen, MJ, and Howard Schultz. Glen is a poor owner. He is not in the camp of those 3 owners however. He's not a bigot or racist (that we know) and he hasnt had an nba rule named after him because he actively doesnt try to win. That said, I would challenge you to tell me if you'd rather have Glen as an owner.....or the Pohlads? Personally, I'd rather have Glen because Glen will try to win...but he's a bit inept. The Pohalds do not try to win...unless they can win on the cheap.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Apr 1, 2024 12:24:28 GMT -6
This is pretty much it on KAT. Jake was going off a Chris Hine tweet on the Wolves offense with and without KAT. It's not that KAT isn't good and doesn't bring a lot of stuff to the table. It's that in general, we're not that much different with him or without him and that's significant when he's going to be making $50M.
Jake is also correct that this season is about the present. This discussion has come up again because of KAT's injury. Here's hoping that the Wolves can play more like the Nuggets game going forward than the Bulls game. I just want to win at least 1 playoff series. I'm not sure how well I'll handle having THIS regular season and then losing in the first round.
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Post by jojo on Apr 1, 2024 12:34:17 GMT -6
Yes to all of that. Teams ceiling is higher with KAT especially against some matchups. But Naz is showing he can be 80% of that. I just hope he comes back and has a good playoffs cause otherwise his contract will be a real albatross. And if Glen holds on his first directive will be to move KAT to avoid paying the tax. That might not be easy even if the return is minimal.
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Post by jr on Apr 1, 2024 16:23:46 GMT -6
Yeah don’t know how this can play out well for Glen. He’s ruining his legacy if he wants to keep ownership. If it’s about squeezing out more dollars that can be negotiated. I expect stuff about the contract to start leaking out on who has the upper hand here. Yeah, he should have left it alone. Lore said, (paraphrased) I've never sued anyone and never been sued. Glen is very accustomed to operating this way. There have been plenty of hints that he's some degree of snake. He could have forever sat courtside with the Mrs. and been grandpa and grandma wolf, the guy who kept the team in Minny, as he fades into the sunset. He obviously enjoyed watching the team. I don't think that can happen now, whether or not he remains controlling owner. There will be no fond feelings coming his way. At worst, he'll get booed and best it'll be tense and it won't be fun anymore, just sitting at home with his bitterness whenever he's made aware there is a home game.
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Post by Nick K on Apr 1, 2024 18:08:54 GMT -6
WOW! Never have I ever thought we'd achieve that. That is just so not us. But it is now.
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Post by Nick K on Apr 1, 2024 18:15:59 GMT -6
Yep. I really believe that IF Glen gets the team that the next owner will move them. Or at least attempt to. Once Glen gets it I dont think he'll sell it. He will pass and his family, who doesnt want the team, will be selling and they wont care if it stays in Minnesota or not. The ability to own a sports team has now fallen out of the realm of possibility for the very wealthy and now only the richest of the rich are able to do it. We dont have many of those people. The odds of the team staying long term are very small if Glen wins. Which reminds me: as a side note to this I dont think the value of the teams will continue to rise like they have been because of exactly what I said above. I think the values are hitting a point where the number of people who can afford them are getting so small that they cant raise much more. The fact that this team went from 2 billion to 3 billion in 3 years is crazy. (And yes the value was closer to 2 billion when LoRod bought in..which shows the deal Glen was willing to give to keep the team here). I read that at the time of the sale, the value of the wolves was closer to $2.5B. it was according to sporttrac or something like that. Phoenix sold for $4B, which isn't really a hot bed for basketball. Sure, it's a bigger city but it's not LA or NY. Glen probably looked them in the eye and shook their hands after getting confirmation that they wouldn't move them out of Minnesota before he agreed to the heavily discounted price. But really, I think I read at the time that glen had a price in mind before his meeting with them. If that's true, it's not like they fleeced him, they agreed to his number. Great point! Back then Glen thought it was a fair price no doubt. He bought it for 75 million...not bad. Plus, Glen was down on the team and it's losing. He was tired of it. He had his fill. Now everything is different and he loves it so why not screw the guys he shook hands with, looked in the eye, and had lasagna with. I am so disappointed in Glen welshing on this deal.
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Post by Nick K on Apr 1, 2024 18:20:29 GMT -6
I'm not sure this will be resolved by NEXT years finals. This wont be quick. Seems like they had agreed to arbitration beforehand so shouldn't that speed it up? An arbitrator reviews the info which does take some time, but then they make their decision. It was my understanding that agreeing to arbitration makes suing afterwards unlikely as the odds of winning go down a lot. I'm a little confused on why it has to take forever for this to go through arbitration. They have a 90 day extension for the league to approve so there has to be a fair arbiter available on an expedited basis. It can't take that long to read the contract.
The Lo/Rod group have first rate legal representation behind them.
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Post by levine on Apr 2, 2024 8:53:22 GMT -6
Its a rock and a hard place situation as to who I'm "rooting" for..
I'm not sure how much I trust ALore to keep the team here long-term, and there is definitely a bit of Shyster to both of them.
With Glen, there is no doubt he loves the Wolves and Minnesota. But he's like 185 years old and his wife and heirs have no interest in running the team. My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Apr 2, 2024 10:35:54 GMT -6
My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are. That would be cold. Becky has to know how important it is for Glen to keep the team here. I suppose know one knows though. This could really messy and I think in general, the fans are going to be on LoRod's side in the court of public opinion. Glen getting treated poorly if he loses control would surely rub that side the wrong way. What a mess!
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Post by levine on Apr 2, 2024 10:50:55 GMT -6
My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are. That would be cold. Becky has to know how important it is for Glen to keep the team here. I suppose know one knows though. This could really messy and I think in general, the fans are going to be on LoRod's side in the court of public opinion. Glen getting treated poorly if he loses control would surely rub that side the wrong way. What a mess! How many years has Glen tried to find someone in Minnesota with enough money to buy the club and the willingness to keep it here? And the club is worth at least double what it was when he couldn't find takers.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Apr 2, 2024 12:05:25 GMT -6
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Post by kingsxman on Apr 2, 2024 13:47:08 GMT -6
Its a rock and a hard place situation as to who I'm "rooting" for.. I'm not sure how much I trust ALore to keep the team here long-term, and there is definitely a bit of Shyster to both of them. With Glen, there is no doubt he loves the Wolves and Minnesota. But he's like 185 years old and his wife and heirs have no interest in running the team. My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are.Bingo. Hence why I'm probably on the Lo-Rod side. I truly dont think they'll move the team. And there arent a ton of uber wealthy here in Minnesota to buy them. But...I have concerns if they are cash rich enough to actually run the team. But...I think that will come out in the NBA governors stuff. There is always the possibility that the NBA wont let them leave. But these prices are getting out of hand.
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Post by kingsxman on Apr 2, 2024 13:51:19 GMT -6
Unfortunately, this is Lo-Rods "Iron Clad". Iron Clad
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Post by tmill720 on Apr 2, 2024 13:53:02 GMT -6
Its a rock and a hard place situation as to who I'm "rooting" for.. I'm not sure how much I trust ALore to keep the team here long-term, and there is definitely a bit of Shyster to both of them. With Glen, there is no doubt he loves the Wolves and Minnesota. But he's like 185 years old and his wife and heirs have no interest in running the team. My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are.Bingo. Hence why I'm probably on the Lo-Rod side. I truly dont think they'll move the team. And there arent a ton of uber wealthy here in Minnesota to buy them. But...I have concerns if they are cash rich enough to actually run the team. But...I think that will come out in the NBA governors stuff. There is always the possibility that the NBA wont let them leave. But these prices are getting out of hand. I think the biggest thing would be to hold out until Vegas and Seattle get expansion teams, although mostly Vegas. Would we really be scared of someone paying $4 billion and then moving the team to St. Louis, Louisville, Montreal, Vancouver, etc? I guess if any of those cities would be willing to use public funding for a stadium then maybe, otherwise they are all lateral-moves to downgrades from a market perspective. And the climate is not looking good for public stadium funding at the moment.
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Post by quinn on Apr 2, 2024 13:59:55 GMT -6
Its a rock and a hard place situation as to who I'm "rooting" for.. I'm not sure how much I trust ALore to keep the team here long-term, and there is definitely a bit of Shyster to both of them.
With Glen, there is no doubt he loves the Wolves and Minnesota. But he's like 185 years old and his wife and heirs have no interest in running the team. My worry is if he goes, Becky immediately sells to the highest bidder, no matter what their plans for the franchise are. I think I trust them to keep it here because I think there's a ton of unrealized value in the Twin Cities. I said it before, but I believe MSP is something like the 12-14th largest media market in the league. Combined with a plethora of Fortune 500 companies available for corporate sponsorship, I think there's opportunities abound to make money here. I also just don't know where they'd move it that would be better than MSP. The NBA seems dead set on expanding to Seattle and Vegas. Not relocating. So once you take those markets off the table, what are you really left with for relocation cities? Kansas City, Nashville, Montreal, Vancouver, Mexico City, Pittsburgh, and Tampa would be the places that stick out most to me. I have a hard time seeing the NBA approving a move there right now especially while the team is good. I think the issue will come when they want to build the new stadium (should they take over). If they don't get public funding (I call BS on them privately funding a stadium) then I could see them threatening a move. Ultimately then I believe the NBA will look at these other cities and try to envision what market is going to be the most profitable to put Ant in. My money would be Mexico City.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Apr 2, 2024 14:02:40 GMT -6
The ownership question now goes to arbitration. What happens if the arbitration process extends beyond the 90 window that LoRod's interpretation of the contract says they should get to have the league approve the sale? If I'm understanding their POV, the contract allows them 90 days to gain approval with the league after submitting their documentation etc. The league isn't going to vote on it now as Glen has taken the sale off the table. What happens if LoRod win in arbitration, but it's now beyond that 90 window? Could Glen doing what he did create the situation where the contract actually does void? That would seem contrary to the spirit of the contract, but legally could it work?
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Post by levine on Apr 2, 2024 14:14:23 GMT -6
The ownership question now goes to arbitration. What happens if the arbitration process extends beyond the 90 window that LoRod's interpretation of the contract says they should get to have the league approve the sale? If I'm understanding their POV, the contract allows them 90 days to gain approval with the league after submitting their documentation etc. The league isn't going to vote on it now as Glen has taken the sale off the table. What happens if LoRod win in arbitration, but it's now beyond that 90 window? Could Glen doing what he did create the situation where the contract actually does void? That would seem contrary to the spirit of the contract, but legally could it work? I'm pretty sure there is a zero chance that a deadline could be missed because of arbitration. It would mean all you'd ever have to do to get out of a bad deal with any kind of deadline is contest it so the deadline passes.
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Post by quinn on Apr 2, 2024 14:15:47 GMT -6
The ownership question now goes to arbitration. What happens if the arbitration process extends beyond the 90 window that LoRod's interpretation of the contract says they should get to have the league approve the sale? If I'm understanding their POV, the contract allows them 90 days to gain approval with the league after submitting their documentation etc. The league isn't going to vote on it now as Glen has taken the sale off the table. What happens if LoRod win in arbitration, but it's now beyond that 90 window? Could Glen doing what he did create the situation where the contract actually does void? That would seem contrary to the spirit of the contract, but legally could it work? I almost wonder if the NBA will vote on it because documentation has already been submitted in regards to the purchase agreement prior to Glen backing out. The NBA does have "pre-approved" groups, like Dyal. It could be a situation where the NBA votes on Lo-Rod's funding and pre-approves them to be owners. From what I understand, that's what the NBA is voting on. Whether or not their funding is legit for them to be owners. Once they're approved, then the money switches hands and they become principal owners. So I THINK, with all the wealth of legal knowledge I have, that they could get the approval done, which would fall within the 90 day extension. Then, if Glen is ruled to have violated the contract, they would have all of that done within the 90 day extension that was supposed to have been given, making them compliant to the demands of the agreement, meaning Glen has to surrender control of the team per the terms of the agreement.
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Post by jojo on Apr 2, 2024 15:03:43 GMT -6
No matter what it won’t be clear cut, and this thing will drag out. The hope is that after the initial arbitration process whatever it is, there will be room for negotiation. Haven’t heard much after the first set of public responses which is a good thing. Maybe they can let emotions cool and see if they still work out something. Even though A-Rod criticized Glen he didn’t go overboard and even gave Glen credit for a few things. Those two seem to have cool heads in general but wanted to get it out that they were in it for the long haul. Which helps their negotiating stance.
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