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Post by levine on Oct 12, 2024 14:41:19 GMT -6
Do you give up the Detroit pick for him? I think there is a decent chance it conveys in 2026 or 27. Does Utah take that? I don't know... If we had more picks, sure. I guess it boils down to if you think he can be a starter on a contender in 2 years. I'm not convinced he can be. Did he have a sophomore slump, or is his game too limited and teams figured him out? Hell yes! I'd give up the Detroit pick. I'd throw in NAW and Garza too. They might be tempted. Those guys could help Utah. Of course you'd have to make the money work. The only trade that works for us capwise is Kessler for NAW. And Utah would have to be willing to go an extra 1.2M over the cap to do it. I'd consider it, because Kessler still has a chance to be decent. But I'd really like a more rangy athletic type of center instead of a poor man's Gobert.
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Post by levine on Oct 12, 2024 14:45:02 GMT -6
I've seen suggestions of a Randle for Jarret Allen trade as it appears Cleveland isn't sold on Allen and Mobley playing together. And they really need more offense.
It would likely mean moving Rudy as well (because you can't play Rudy and Allen together and both are too good to be bench players), but Allen/Naz and Mobley/Randle are both very synergistic pairings.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 7:53:57 GMT -6
I've seen suggestions of a Randle for Jarret Allen trade as it appears Cleveland isn't sold on Allen and Mobley playing together. And they really need more offense. It would likely mean moving Rudy as well (because you can't play Rudy and Allen together and both are too good to be bench players), but Allen/Naz and Mobley/Randle are both very synergistic pairings. That is an interesting swap. Allen is pretty good and is only 26.
One of the tentacles of the KAT deal is that it showed a long term belief in Naz. It seems that the runway is there for him to be the long term PF making Randle a piece to move. Rudy is great defensively, but how long does that last? Swapping Randle for Allen really sets up a 5 year run of Ant, Donte, Dilly, Jaden, Naz, and Allen hopefully supplemented by TJ and Minott.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 8:01:17 GMT -6
Hell yes! I'd give up the Detroit pick. I'd throw in NAW and Garza too. They might be tempted. Those guys could help Utah. Of course you'd have to make the money work. The only trade that works for us capwise is Kessler for NAW. And Utah would have to be willing to go an extra 1.2M over the cap to do it. I'd consider it, because Kessler still has a chance to be decent. But I'd really like a more rangy athletic type of center instead of a poor man's Gobert. Kessler's advanced rim protection numbers were still top notch last year. He got injured early and it messed up his season along with having really poor defensive teammates. He certainly needs to turn it up a notch, but if the price is right, then it's something to consider. Still, I always wonder about guys that a team is willing to give up on so early. If Kessler is the next Gobert, why would Utah even consider trading him? Sure, he's very much the traditional center and that might not be the preferred way to play anymore, but I still don't think a team that really thought they had a good young player would consider trading him.
Consider Jaden. With the Rudy deal, much was made about how many 1sts the Wolves gave up so that they didn't have to include Jaden which led to the discussion of how many 1sts Jaden was worth. A lot of people said 2 firsts, but there's no way that the Wolves would have actually traded him for 2 firsts. Why? Because they believed in his potential. Utah asking for two 1sts for Kessler seems like a sign that he's not actually a guy to believe in.
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Post by quinn on Oct 13, 2024 9:07:41 GMT -6
I've seen suggestions of a Randle for Jarret Allen trade as it appears Cleveland isn't sold on Allen and Mobley playing together. And they really need more offense. It would likely mean moving Rudy as well (because you can't play Rudy and Allen together and both are too good to be bench players), but Allen/Naz and Mobley/Randle are both very synergistic pairings. I'm curious as to how the FO really sees Rudy's fit long term. The've said all the right things about wanting to keep him here long term and for him to retire a Wolf, but does having Rudy Gobert for another 3-4 years really help maximize Ant? I have my doubts. Swapping Randle for Allen is a really intriguing idea. Allen gives you a decent chunk of the rim deterrence that Rudy does as well as the same lob threat. If that happens, where does Rudy go? My first thought would be NOLA to help them shore up the center position alongside Zion. Next best guess would be San Antonio to pair him with Wemby and to raise their ceiling defensively. That would be an incredibly intimidating frontcourt defensively.
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Post by levine on Oct 13, 2024 10:09:54 GMT -6
I've seen suggestions of a Randle for Jarret Allen trade as it appears Cleveland isn't sold on Allen and Mobley playing together. And they really need more offense. It would likely mean moving Rudy as well (because you can't play Rudy and Allen together and both are too good to be bench players), but Allen/Naz and Mobley/Randle are both very synergistic pairings. That is an interesting swap. Allen is pretty good and is only 26.
One of the tentacles of the KAT deal is that it showed a long term belief in Naz. It seems that the runway is there for him to be the long term PF making Randle a piece to move. Rudy is great defensively, but how long does that last? Swapping Randle for Allen really sets up a 5 year run of Ant, Donte, Dilly, Jaden, Naz, and Allen hopefully supplemented by TJ and Minott.
And potentially whatever you get back in a Gobert trade. Allen is smaller than Gobert and not the shot blocker, but he's a terrific defender that is less stout, but way more switchable) and very good rebounder. And he's an absolute beast in transition with great hands and the ability to snag any ball that comes near him. And he's a better than 70% FT shooter. Plus he's under contract for 5 more year at a huge bargain: 20/20/28/30/32
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Post by kingsxman on Oct 13, 2024 10:13:34 GMT -6
If that's the price, would getting him back to sit behind Rudy be all that bad of a strategy? After all, he does have some solid chops on defense and is someone Connelly acquired, so there is known interest there. Sitting behind one of the best defensive players of all time would probably not be the worst thing for his development. Do you give up the Detroit pick for him? I think there is a decent chance it conveys in 2026 or 27. Does Utah take that? I don't know... If we had more picks, sure. I guess it boils down to if you think he can be a starter on a contender in 2 years. I'm not convinced he can be. Did he have a sophomore slump, or is his game too limited and teams figured him out? I'd for sure give up the Detroit pick for him. You're absolutely right that the question on him is if he had a sophomore slump or if his game just didnt evolve. I trust Connely to figure that out and do something before everyone else figures it out and his value jumps if the answer is it was a sophomore slump.
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Post by kingsxman on Oct 13, 2024 10:18:30 GMT -6
That is an interesting swap. Allen is pretty good and is only 26.
One of the tentacles of the KAT deal is that it showed a long term belief in Naz. It seems that the runway is there for him to be the long term PF making Randle a piece to move. Rudy is great defensively, but how long does that last? Swapping Randle for Allen really sets up a 5 year run of Ant, Donte, Dilly, Jaden, Naz, and Allen hopefully supplemented by TJ and Minott.
And potentially whatever you get back in a Gobert trade. Allen is smaller than Gobert and not the shot blocker, but he's a terrific defender that is less stout, but way more switchable) and very good rebounder. And he's an absolute beast in transition with great hands and the ability to snag any ball that comes near him. And he's a better than 70% FT shooter. Plus he's under contract for 5 more year at a huge bargain: 20/20/28/30/32 You're selling me on him. I like the idea. But you'd have to move Rudy this year then. I think that may be hard and its a pretty big disruption to the team.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 10:31:50 GMT -6
I'd for sure give up the Detroit pick for him. You're absolutely right that the question on him is if he had a sophomore slump or if his game just didnt evolve. I trust Connely to figure that out and do something before everyone else figures it out and his value jumps if the answer is it was a sophomore slump. It doesn't bother you that the front office that is around Kessler all the time would be willing to trade him? Utah is rebuilding. They have to time to develop him. If they thought he was good clay that just needed molding, why would they trade him for a draft pick and a guy they could sign as a FA (NAW)?
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Post by levine on Oct 13, 2024 10:38:51 GMT -6
And potentially whatever you get back in a Gobert trade. Allen is smaller than Gobert and not the shot blocker, but he's a terrific defender that is less stout, but way more switchable) and very good rebounder. And he's an absolute beast in transition with great hands and the ability to snag any ball that comes near him. And he's a better than 70% FT shooter. Plus he's under contract for 5 more year at a huge bargain: 20/20/28/30/32 You're selling me on him. I like the idea. But you'd have to move Rudy this year then. I think that may be hard and its a pretty big disruption to the team. It would be a huge disruption. I'm not sure if the trading away of KAT would make it easier or harder on the team. We'd absolutely have to get a piece that helps for Rudy. I don't think Atlanta would do it, and we'd have to clear 2 roster spots (probably Dozier and KBD) but Rudy for Jalen Johnson, Bogdan Bogdanović and Clint Capella works financially. We'd be absolutely stacked and deep enough to handle an injury to almost anyone. But I don't know how you bench either McDaniels or Jalen Johnson. And I think you have to trade NAW, because he becomes injury insurance only. And TSJ either gets traded as well, or spends the year in Iowa. We might be too deep... Allen/Capella/Garza Naz/Jalen Johnson/Minott/Miller McDaniels/Johnson/Bogdanović/Minott/TSJ Ant/Donte/Bogdanović/NAW/TSJ Conley/Donte/Dillingham
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 10:44:36 GMT -6
You're selling me on him. I like the idea. But you'd have to move Rudy this year then. I think that may be hard and its a pretty big disruption to the team. Probably? It wouldn't likely work personality wise as Rudy is a proud guy and wouldn't want to platoon, but on the court, I'm not sure it's an awful idea just make the deal and have both Rudy and Allen. The team's identity is defense and this kind of move would double down on that as we'd have 48 min of great defense at the center position. It would save wear and tear on both guys to just share the center minutes. I'm not saying it's an ideal allocation of resources, but the money is already committed and this would be a move to make if a guy like Minott is actually ready to contribute. Trading Randle elevates Naz to the starting role and opens minutes at the 4 for a Minott or a TJ Shannon (or Ingles). The Wolves would be playing lots of rangy wings/forwards anchored by 48 min of excellent defense at center. It's just a thought and very unlikely. It also doesn't take into account Rudy's player option. Not sure what would happen there.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 10:51:39 GMT -6
You're selling me on him. I like the idea. But you'd have to move Rudy this year then. I think that may be hard and its a pretty big disruption to the team. It would be a huge disruption. I'm not sure if the trading away of KAT would make it easier or harder on the team. We'd absolutely have to get a piece that helps for Rudy. I don't think Atlanta would do it, and we'd have to clear 2 roster spots (probably Dozier and KBD) but Rudy for Jalen Johnson, Bogdan Bogdanović and Clint Capella works financially. We'd be absolutely stacked and deep enough to handle an injury to almost anyone. But I don't know how you bench either McDaniels or Jalen Johnson. And I think you have to trade NAW, because he becomes injury insurance only. And TSJ either gets traded as well, or spends the year in Iowa. We might be too deep... Allen/Capella/Garza Naz/Jalen Johnson/Minott/Miller McDaniels/Johnson/Bogdanović/Minott/TSJ Ant/Donte/Bogdanović/NAW/TSJ Conley/Donte/Dillingham That would great, but I think there's zero chance Atlanta is trading Johnson. They seem him as Risacher as their frontcourt of the future.
Capela and Bogdanovic isn't enough though. Would Atlanta trade the Lakers pick they got for Murray? Unlikely.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 13, 2024 11:04:51 GMT -6
NAW would actually fit pretty well in Atlanta next to Trae Young. Could do 2 separate trades. Rudy for Capela and Bogdan and then NAW for Roddy or Bufkin or whomever. Wolves could add the Detroit pick if Atlanta is trading the Lakers 1st.
Capela as a backup to Allen on an expiring contract would fulfill the 48 min of good center defense. Bogdan is on a good contract for 2 more years. The Wolves would be stacked with shooters.
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Post by levine on Oct 13, 2024 15:39:44 GMT -6
It’s funny that it actually makes more sense for us to leave Johnson out.
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Oct 13, 2024 20:16:23 GMT -6
Honestly, if I were Finch, I would refrain from greenlighting a NAW trade for as long as possible. Guards with absolute ELITE defensive skills are rare, and defense wins championships. When his shot is not falling even Steph Curry is completely unplayable! Give NAW a little room. Get him a shooting coach. Draw some plays where he sets screens or something... find a way to have him on the floor, it will pay off!
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Post by levine on Oct 13, 2024 20:31:29 GMT -6
Curry with a horrible shooting night still has more gravity than any player in the league.
NAW with a horrible shooting night is Josh Okogie.
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Post by darko on Oct 13, 2024 20:45:25 GMT -6
Curry’s always been pretty sloppy with the ball, doesn’t play d, and doesn’t really generate shots for others. I would take the gravity of prime DeAndre Jordan or like a Amare Stoudamire because it opens up shots for everyone including the ball handler.
What Steph does looks different but it’s not that different from what any shooter is doing. USA was a good example, the Olympics four years ago that was a healthy LaVine in that role, and he was great. Could have been about any NBA 3 baller there, but he has some trick shots that make it feel like Globetrotters and pop on social.
The difference is if Zach is there they draw those late games shots for KD, but idea is still the same.
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Post by darko on Oct 13, 2024 20:54:53 GMT -6
My guess is Steph’s like Love with he’s okay if they are winning as long as he’s getting his numbers, but everyone on the team takes a back seat to that. So then when like Klay, or Wigs can’t get going you go well Steph just just 1-7 that half from the three, don’t blame me!
I can’t imagine he’d be fun to play with, teammates carry the workload, and he gets the primo shots. Never his fault when the lose, and all of the shine for an O that’s specifically designed to maximize his points tracker.
They were successful but any of his contemporaries could be plugged in there, and the difference his points are spread differently.
Really happy we tricked Kerr into pretending to be mad about the FOM rule change, because they are one of two teams the league bent over backwards for.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Oct 14, 2024 7:59:52 GMT -6
It’s funny that it actually makes more sense for us to leave Johnson out. Yeah. The reality of the new financial system is that it does act like a "hard cap" where teams have to limit the number of big contracts. The Wolves just couldn't afford to extend Johnson AND give Naz his money while keeping Allen etc. Overall though, the Atlanta stuff extremely unlikely even if the Wolves got crazy and dealt Randle. The Randle for Allen thing is actually something that could happen at some point though IMO. They signed Allen to that extension when they did so that he could be traded. They know their 2 big thing is an open question given the particular skillsets each player has and as you mentioned, both teams seem more synergistic in their pairings after the deal. Naz and Allen is quite complementary. I think I'd make that swap right now even with Rudy still here. I think Allen is really good and while he's not Rudy on D, I'm not sure how much longer Rudy will be that guy. Allen is a step down defensively, but he's still really good there and his offense is what we want Rudy to be in that he can actually catch the ball. If Naz takes a step and Minott looks like a legit rotation guy, why not make this move?
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Post by jojo on Oct 14, 2024 8:14:14 GMT -6
TC seems really high on keeping Rudy for the long term. He’s obviously not declining physically yet, so an extension on that score seems to be low risk. He’s probably as important for the defensive culture as anything else. But he needs to buy into being more flexible to matchup rotations where he’s off the floor. Finch was starting to do a little of that but I see it being more frequent if they lean more into small ball at times.
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Post by quinn on Oct 14, 2024 8:23:56 GMT -6
My guess is Steph’s like Love with he’s okay if they are winning as long as he’s getting his numbers, but everyone on the team takes a back seat to that. So then when like Klay, or Wigs can’t get going you go well Steph just just 1-7 that half from the three, don’t blame me! I can’t imagine he’d be fun to play with, teammates carry the workload, and he gets the primo shots. Never his fault when the lose, and all of the shine for an O that’s specifically designed to maximize his points tracker. They were successful but any of his contemporaries could be plugged in there, and the difference his points are spread differently. Really happy we tricked Kerr into pretending to be mad about the FOM rule change, because they are one of two teams the league bent over backwards for. Curry is probably one of the players who would be most fun to play with. Not sure why you hate him so much. He's probably one of the most valuable players of all time given he almost single-handedly changed how the game was played. He took 3>2 and then shot it up with steroids. Those Warriors teams were great and won 4 rings because of Curry. You had to, and still have to, pick him up at damn near 40 feet and you almost need 2 defenders. That opens up so much space for your offense to operate and opens up so many scoring and passing lanes for other guys. Curry revolutionized basketball on his own. Moving screens from Draymond and Pachulia and whatever big they had didn't make Steph. Steph is one of the best players of all time and the Warriors did great in drafting talent to fit him. My guess is if you put Steph on those losing Wolves teams, he'd probably be gone before you could say freedom of movement because of all the losing.
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Post by quinn on Oct 14, 2024 8:26:33 GMT -6
It’s funny that it actually makes more sense for us to leave Johnson out. Yeah. The reality of the new financial system is that it does act like a "hard cap" where teams have to limit the number of big contracts. The Wolves just couldn't afford to extend Johnson AND give Naz his money while keeping Allen etc. Overall though, the Atlanta stuff extremely unlikely even if the Wolves got crazy and dealt Randle. The Randle for Allen thing is actually something that could happen at some point though IMO. They signed Allen to that extension when they did so that he could be traded. They know their 2 big thing is an open question given the particular skillsets each player has and as you mentioned, both teams seem more synergistic in their pairings after the deal. Naz and Allen is quite complementary. I think I'd make that swap right now even with Rudy still here. I think Allen is really good and while he's not Rudy on D, I'm not sure how much longer Rudy will be that guy. Allen is a step down defensively, but he's still really good there and his offense is what we want Rudy to be in that he can actually catch the ball. If Naz takes a step and Minott looks like a legit rotation guy, why not make this move? This still comes back to the 2nd apron penalties though. We're going to need to shed some salary at some point to get us out of the 2nd apron so we can simply aggregate players again. We'll need to consolidate some of the depth at some point, but can really only do that if we aggregate those guys or find ways to trade them for first round picks to use with a larger salary. Being deep is great, but those guys are much easier to come by than stars who fit Ant.
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Post by darko on Oct 14, 2024 8:42:48 GMT -6
My guess is Steph’s like Love with he’s okay if they are winning as long as he’s getting his numbers, but everyone on the team takes a back seat to that. So then when like Klay, or Wigs can’t get going you go well Steph just just 1-7 that half from the three, don’t blame me! I can’t imagine he’d be fun to play with, teammates carry the workload, and he gets the primo shots. Never his fault when the lose, and all of the shine for an O that’s specifically designed to maximize his points tracker. They were successful but any of his contemporaries could be plugged in there, and the difference his points are spread differently. Really happy we tricked Kerr into pretending to be mad about the FOM rule change, because they are one of two teams the league bent over backwards for. Curry is probably one of the players who would be most fun to play with. Not sure why you hate him so much. He's probably one of the most valuable players of all time given he almost single-handedly changed how the game was played. He took 3>2 and then shot it up with steroids. Those Warriors teams were great and won 4 rings because of Curry. You had to, and still have to, pick him up at damn near 40 feet and you almost need 2 defenders. That opens up so much space for your offense to operate and opens up so many scoring and passing lanes for other guys. Curry revolutionized basketball on his own. Moving screens from Draymond and Pachulia and whatever big they had didn't make Steph. Steph is one of the best players of all time and the Warriors did great in drafting talent to fit him. My guess is if you put Steph on those losing Wolves teams, he'd probably be gone before you could say freedom of movement because of all the losing. Can disagree. I still take Ray Allen or Kyle Korver as movement shooter guys. Or even prime Klay giving you elite d AND shooting. Dame, Rubio, Holiday, all those guys get different legacies if getting to play with Prime Dray, KD, Thompson, and Iggy, let alone any semblance of the full back screens they were throwing guys several feet off the ball. That Kings series a couple years ago was straight up WWE basketball (meaning fake), Celtics finals (whom I don't even like) where Dray is just tackling people, it was straight up lunacy. The league changed the rules of basketball to lnflate the value of shooting efficiency. We can all disagree on how much we like watching those Warriors teams (I enjoyed the rise because they were different, and had different advantages), but that team and player is the most propped up/manufacture star in the history of pro sports. Donte's in the Steph role here, now, and he's does more because he can defend, and also has never been considered a max player. Wolves could change their offense for the singler purpose of getting him 14 three's a game, but got to have those high level playmakers, and d around him. I just think too much credit is given to scoring, his teams were vastly deeper and more top heavy than the west. You know who looks awesome with KD, Klay, Iggy, and Green, Double R. National guys, peeps who do this for a living, they lack imagination, and ultimately just know if someone led in points, which is why we were told Kat had a underwhelming playoffs, despite the fact he was awesome. There is more to basketball than points, and if you want a guy to score 30, any team can do that, that is different than playing the best version of team 5 on 5 basketball. If Steph is in MN, I doubt FOM even happens. The weakness of those Warriors teams was size, physicality, rebounding, and the league just removed those from basketball for over a half decade. Steph is fine I just look at greats as being able to do multiple things, playmake, d, tough shot maker. I think he does one of those at a very high level, but guys like Giannis, LeBron, Leonard, Ant, that's a different level super star to me. Wemby likely will get there.
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Post by darko on Oct 14, 2024 8:44:38 GMT -6
We're going to need to shed some salary at some point to get us out of the 2nd apron so we can simply aggregate players again. I imagine this is the plan before the deadline, even if it doesn't net us our future star. That move more likely comes at the end of the season.
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Post by Nick K on Oct 14, 2024 9:35:08 GMT -6
I know all the trade talk is fun speculation but trading Randle now doesn't make sense. Why don't we see how things look with him in there. I'm starting to warm up to him playing next to Rudy.
Jalen Johnson at 6'9 220, makes no sense to me on our Wolves team.
I am intrigued with Bojan and Capella but that trade could really blow up in our face.
I like what we have now. DiVincenzo looks fabulous to me. He's just what we need when the offense cools off with guys having off nights.
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