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Post by levine on Nov 13, 2018 17:52:43 GMT -6
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Post by levine on Nov 13, 2018 17:54:02 GMT -6
Also not promising. From Stein:
What happens if the Wolves somehow pull themselves together from here to earn a second successive playoff berth after 13 seasons without one? Thibodeau still has two seasons left on his monster contract, so he may not be so easily cast aside.
Another potential complication: One coach Taylor is known to be very fond of — Fred Hoiberg — is still employed by the Bulls. A former Timberwolves front-office executive before he moved into college coaching at Iowa State, Hoiberg has one more season after this left on his Chicago contract.
Within the Wolves’s organization, Ryan Saunders — an assistant coach on Thibodeau’s staff and the son of the late former Timberwolves Coach Flip Saunders — is held in high regard.
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 13, 2018 18:01:38 GMT -6
I havent read that article yet. Was just going to do it shortly. Man...this is a bummer...
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Post by Nick K on Nov 13, 2018 18:59:26 GMT -6
From Canis...
"Adrian Wojnarowski wrote an absolutely brutal piece for ESPN that starts like this:
As Tom Thibodeau’s plan disintegrated, owner Glen Taylor lost his last remnants of belief in this crumbling regime.
Ouch. Later he writes:
Eventually, Thibodeau had lost hope that he could convince Butler to stay for the long term, but his ego still believed he could coach these Timberwolves into playoff contention before the February trade deadline. He underestimated this saga’s impact on the rest of the team, especially his young max-contract players, as they watched Thibodeau excuse behavior and beg Butler to play games.
And later:
Thibodeau the coach turned out to be Thibodeau the president and coach: embroiled in turmoil, entangled in needless clashes and chasing today over tomorrow." ------------------------------ From Canis:
"In the near term, we’ll see if he is capable of pivoting away from his obvious comfort zone of having a ball-dominant guard or wing who scores as the basis of his offense, to a more Towns-centric system. I’m not confident, as we saw both in pre-season and during the regular season when Butler sat, much of that role was simply transferred to Derrick Rose.
Rose, whose hot three point shooting and relative willingness to feed KAT has somewhat mitigated his frequently hopeless forays to the rim and porous defense, actually leads the team in usage. This is not a long-term solution for the Wolves, whose offense has dropped off significantly so far, in part due to lineup inconsistencies forced upon them by injury and Butler.
Towns, for a big man, has a complete package of offensive skills that really should be the focus of the Wolves offense. I’d like to see him operating from the top, where his ability to shoot or drive can be exploited. I’d love to see some unconventional pick and roll action with Towns as the ball handler. With the addition of shooters Robert Covington and Dario Saric, there should be more room for Towns to operate both on the drive and in the post.
At any rate, there are new players coming in, both of whom are likely to be here for at least the next couple of years, and it’s time to figure out how this team moves forward past this season. It’s time to experiment with combinations to see what works—can Towns and Saric thrive together, or will the potential of their offense be overshadowed by disastrous D? Conversely, does a Covington-Okogie wing pairing cause enough havoc on D to make up for limited offense?
As much as I value winning, the Wolves have made a radical change, with an eye toward future seasons—not five years from now, but next year and the year after. They need to start figuring out what they have and what they don’t, and if wins don’t come as frequently this season, well, that’s what happens when you are forced into trading the best player on the team.
The question is whether Thibs is the guy for that job. He’s going to have to use his new guys—the roster demands it (though how he approaches the Gibson-Saric-Tolliver log jam at power forward is something to watch.) But Thibs is desperate to win, both by nature and because it’s the only plausible way for him to stay employed past this season. That’s not the worst thing—everyone likes winning. But as we saw early this season, it might not be in the cards for this Wolves team, and if it isn’t they have to focus on what things might look like a year from now.
That has not proven to be Thibs’ strong suit. It should be an interesting few months." ---------------------------------- I love that stuff.
Hard to believe Thibs is the right guy for the job but life can continue to surprise us.
Since Thibs is here for the forseeable future, how do we proceed? Can he coach to players strengths or is he a one trick pony?
The new players we acquired should require us to play a completely different brand of basketball. We now have 5 guys who can shoot from 3. Granted Teague and Saric have gotten off to slow starts. Our style of play needs to substantially change with tons of ball movement, cutting players, crisp passing and lot's of 3's. We have 4 guys there who can drive the lane too. That's crowd pleasing basketball.
I still think we have a lot of talent so I think we need to go at least 10 deep. Most other teams are doing it especially early in the year. Why not find combinations that work.
I love Taj but we need to improve our defensive rebounding. I want to see Saric start next to Towns and see if these guys can get those boards and reduce the 2nd chance points we give up. Our 2nd unit will be better with Taj next to Gorgui and Tolliver with any available backcourt.
Wouldn't it be great if Towns and Saric can get the job done?
Can Thibs coach to a different style of play? Can he design a scheme that works best with the new talent we have? I don't think he can. I think he's a one trick pony. i would be happy to say I'm wrong about that.
I'm really excited about the game tomorrow night.
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Post by boognish on Nov 13, 2018 22:39:43 GMT -6
It's fine. I'm actually interested to see if Thibs can somehow modify his system to better utilize this new roster. He has been changing things up a bit this year, so I'm at least a little bit hopeful that he can figure things out with this squad.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 14, 2018 4:05:22 GMT -6
$24 mil (welp, now more like $22.5 given we're 14 games in) is a hefty bill to pony up. I'm pretty sure Thibs won't coax the "new" squad to the playoffs (I think the team plays better but we still have a ways to go to get a better fit roster in place) and pretty sure that he's gone at season's end (if not before although I think that possibility is low). Thibs is going to get paid either way at this point so him "behaving" while trying to win games is probably going to help boost what's left of his reputation.
I'm also confident there will be more moves coming down the pike with this roster - particularly with some combination of Teague, Taj, Tolliver, Tyus, and/or Dieng.
If the end game is we get a modern roster with a new coach next year, having Thibs reboot the team's look this season is probably best. This was shaping up as a "lost" season the second that Taylor dithered on firing Thibs last May.
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Post by boognish on Nov 14, 2018 15:52:06 GMT -6
$24 mil (welp, now more like $22.5 given we're 14 games in) is a hefty bill to pony up. I'm pretty sure Thibs won't coax the "new" squad to the playoffs (I think the team plays better but we still have a ways to go to get a better fit roster in place) and pretty sure that he's gone at season's end (if not before although I think that possibility is low). Thibs is going to get paid either way at this point so him "behaving" while trying to win games is probably going to help boost what's left of his reputation. I'm also confident there will be more moves coming down the pike with this roster - particularly with some combination of Teague, Taj, Tolliver, Tyus, and/or Dieng. If the end game is we get a modern roster with a new coach next year, having Thibs reboot the team's look this season is probably best. This was shaping up as a "lost" season the second that Taylor dithered on firing Thibs last May. Yes it is. And because he is the POBO, Taylor would need to hire someone for that position too, and possibly replace Layden as GM. This team has been through enough turmoil this season. I think Glen will, and should, let it play out a bit and revisit this in the spring or summer. But I imagine fans at games will continue to heckle Thibs, so that might play into Glen's decision-making too.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Nov 14, 2018 16:18:15 GMT -6
Also not promising. From Stein: What happens if the Wolves somehow pull themselves together from here to earn a second successive playoff berth after 13 seasons without one? Thibodeau still has two seasons left on his monster contract, so he may not be so easily cast aside. Another potential complication: One coach Taylor is known to be very fond of — Fred Hoiberg — is still employed by the Bulls. A former Timberwolves front-office executive before he moved into college coaching at Iowa State, Hoiberg has one more season after this left on his Chicago contract. Within the Wolves’s organization, Ryan Saunders — an assistant coach on Thibodeau’s staff and the son of the late former Timberwolves Coach Flip Saunders — is held in high regard. Further info suggesting that this franchise will continue to frustrate until Glen is out of the picture. Glen will eventually fire Thibs/Layden and then we'll have to search for a GM who is okay with Saunders as his coach. Jeesh. Forget about the next future coach and get the best executive possible. Let them hire the coach.
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Post by boognish on Nov 16, 2018 8:31:04 GMT -6
Wolves getting away from "militant ways."
"...the environment in MN is positive with Butler gone, Rose says Thibodeau is getting away from his militant ways..." "Thibodeau is an old-school guy. He’s kind of the opposite of Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr in the sense that his practices aren’t loose and chill. Luol Deng, who is on the Timberwolves as well, once told reporters that during his first season with Thibodeau in Chicago, he almost passed out during a practice because it was so grueling. That forced Deng to get into better shape and it helped the veteran, as he made two All-Star teams with the Bulls. It’s rare to see Tom Thibodeau even smile or laugh. When he does, people are always shocked. There was a dark cloud hanging over the Timberwolves and Thibodeau during the Butler saga, but now it’s over and done with. The team is 2-0 since trading Butler to the Philadelphia 76ers. Maybe this is the start of something new for both Thibodeau and the organization."
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Post by XRaySpecs on Nov 16, 2018 10:19:25 GMT -6
Windhorst on Wolfson's podcast: He has had long discussions with Chauncey Billups on being a GM and Windhorst doesn't seem to think that Chauncey has the strong desire to be that guy. Billups knows the league and has interest, but by description it seems to me that he isn't going to come in and work like his career needs to be made. Plus, he's never had the job before. Seems like a big risk.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 16, 2018 10:31:05 GMT -6
Wolves getting away from "militant ways."
"...the environment in MN is positive with Butler gone, Rose says Thibodeau is getting away from his militant ways..." "Thibodeau is an old-school guy. He’s kind of the opposite of Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr in the sense that his practices aren’t loose and chill. Luol Deng, who is on the Timberwolves as well, once told reporters that during his first season with Thibodeau in Chicago, he almost passed out during a practice because it was so grueling. That forced Deng to get into better shape and it helped the veteran, as he made two All-Star teams with the Bulls. It’s rare to see Tom Thibodeau even smile or laugh. When he does, people are always shocked. There was a dark cloud hanging over the Timberwolves and Thibodeau during the Butler saga, but now it’s over and done with. The team is 2-0 since trading Butler to the Philadelphia 76ers. Maybe this is the start of something new for both Thibodeau and the organization." Reminds me a lot of when the players mutinied on Musselman in 90-91. Muss lightened up a bit and the Wolves played much better after a really rough start (7-19, ended up 29-53 on a team that had roughly 25ish win talent).
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 16, 2018 11:03:01 GMT -6
Wolves getting away from "militant ways."
"...the environment in MN is positive with Butler gone, Rose says Thibodeau is getting away from his militant ways..." "Thibodeau is an old-school guy. He’s kind of the opposite of Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr in the sense that his practices aren’t loose and chill. Luol Deng, who is on the Timberwolves as well, once told reporters that during his first season with Thibodeau in Chicago, he almost passed out during a practice because it was so grueling. That forced Deng to get into better shape and it helped the veteran, as he made two All-Star teams with the Bulls. It’s rare to see Tom Thibodeau even smile or laugh. When he does, people are always shocked. There was a dark cloud hanging over the Timberwolves and Thibodeau during the Butler saga, but now it’s over and done with. The team is 2-0 since trading Butler to the Philadelphia 76ers. Maybe this is the start of something new for both Thibodeau and the organization." I met Thibs at a Twolves event at Paisley park last night. He seemed very genuine in thanking me for being there. He's not as scary in person as he appears on the sidelines. He's in better shape than TV shows. The thing is..I think as a "guy"...he's probably a guy you'd like to sit down and have a beer with and talk basketball and stuff. I just dont like his stubborn ways as coach. If he's willing to adapt and let the modern game come to him.... He can maybe pull it off. But I dont think he's got it in him.
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Post by cory on Nov 16, 2018 12:08:27 GMT -6
This is not a surprise. We are in a bad spot as Thibs only reports to Glen which is the blind leading the blind on personnel decisions. If there was a truly competent basketball person running the roster and franchise decisions, we could get by with Thibs coaching schemes but we still are wasting KAT in some ways. But Glen won't be looking to cut the check to get Thibs out of town. I bet he's here to stay.
And Tolliver says that Thibs didn't communicate with him on his DNP. Just do the small things man, be a professional.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 16, 2018 15:20:39 GMT -6
Wolves getting away from "militant ways."
"...the environment in MN is positive with Butler gone, Rose says Thibodeau is getting away from his militant ways..." "Thibodeau is an old-school guy. He’s kind of the opposite of Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr in the sense that his practices aren’t loose and chill. Luol Deng, who is on the Timberwolves as well, once told reporters that during his first season with Thibodeau in Chicago, he almost passed out during a practice because it was so grueling. That forced Deng to get into better shape and it helped the veteran, as he made two All-Star teams with the Bulls. It’s rare to see Tom Thibodeau even smile or laugh. When he does, people are always shocked. There was a dark cloud hanging over the Timberwolves and Thibodeau during the Butler saga, but now it’s over and done with. The team is 2-0 since trading Butler to the Philadelphia 76ers. Maybe this is the start of something new for both Thibodeau and the organization." Good stuff Boognish. I'm surprised but happy to hear an old dog just might be able to learn new tricks. I think Thibs is realizing he's coaching for his life and massive change is needed.
I've been seeing some of it in less sideline barking and less micromanagement. The "fire Thibs" cries in the quiet arena he shrugs off with a smile. Maybe he's getting the message.
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 17, 2018 9:32:42 GMT -6
So here's the million dollar question: Lets say Thibs gets these guys in the playoffs (long shot) and they actually win a series. Now what? If that happens...it would be BECAUSE Thibs has changed his ways a bit and moved into a more modern approach. Lets say the "happiness" we are seeing with the team now doesnt dissapate as time goes on. Is there a scenario where Thibs gets another year?
Id prefer to move on regardless...but I could see Glen keeping him as coach. I think the front office job is done after the year regardless.
Here's a good question: Gun to your head and you had to keep Thibs as either POBO or coach which would you take? You have to take one. I've gone back and forth on this. his drafting has been ok but then also really bad (Patton). He did get good value for Butler in the end...but could have done the deal earlier and maybe alleviated headaches. I initially said i'd keep him as POBO but I think I have to go coach. As POBO he'd hire a clone of himself to coach where as coach he is going to have to report to the POBO. So that lessons the damage.
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Post by boognish on Nov 17, 2018 9:43:29 GMT -6
So here's the million dollar question: Lets say Thibs gets these guys in the playoffs (long shot) and they actually win a series. Now what? If that happens...it would be BECAUSE Thibs has changed his ways a bit and moved into a more modern approach. Lets say the "happiness" we are seeing with the team now doesnt dissapate as time goes on. Is there a scenario where Thibs gets another year? Id prefer to move on regardless...but I could see Glen keeping him as coach. I think the front office job is done after the year regardless. Here's a good question: Gun to your head and you had to keep Thibs as either POBO or coach which would you take? You have to take one. I've gone back and forth on this. his drafting has been ok but then also really bad (Patton). He did get good value for Butler in the end...but could have done the deal earlier and maybe alleviated headaches. I initially said i'd keep him as POBO but I think I have to go coach. As POBO he'd hire a clone of himself to coach where as coach he is going to have to report to the POBO. So that lessons the damage. If they win because Thibs modernized his coaching style and the players are happy, why would you want to fire Thibs? I seriously doubt that he is capable of such a radical transformation, but if he is then we would be stupid to fire him in favor of an unknown coach, especially when Glen would probably end up hiring Fred Hoiberg or Ryan Saunders. And Thibs is a coach first, GM second. I think he's much better with the X's and O's than he would be as a full-time GM.
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Post by cory on Nov 17, 2018 9:50:05 GMT -6
So here's the million dollar question: Lets say Thibs gets these guys in the playoffs (long shot) and they actually win a series. Now what? If that happens...it would be BECAUSE Thibs has changed his ways a bit and moved into a more modern approach. Lets say the "happiness" we are seeing with the team now doesnt dissapate as time goes on. Is there a scenario where Thibs gets another year? Id prefer to move on regardless...but I could see Glen keeping him as coach. I think the front office job is done after the year regardless. Here's a good question: Gun to your head and you had to keep Thibs as either POBO or coach which would you take? You have to take one. I've gone back and forth on this. his drafting has been ok but then also really bad (Patton). He did get good value for Butler in the end...but could have done the deal earlier and maybe alleviated headaches. I initially said i'd keep him as POBO but I think I have to go coach. As POBO he'd hire a clone of himself to coach where as coach he is going to have to report to the POBO. So that lessons the damage. If they win because Thibs modernized his coaching style and the players are happy, why would you want to fire Thibs? I seriously doubt that he is capable of such a radical transformation, but if he is then we would be stupid to fire him in favor of an unknown coach, especially when Glen would probably end up hiring Fred Hoiberg or Ryan Saunders. And Thibs is a coach first, GM second. I think he's much better with the X's and O's than he would be as a full-time GM. Yes. If we do well enough to make the playoffs at this point, I think there's a great chance Thibs is back between the money he's owed and Glen's history. And if we play that well, it's going to be because we are running more pick and roll, letting more creativity into our offense, giving KAT the ball, getting more out of Wiggins and our defensive schemes have changed. We are not going to win if those things stay the way they were last year or when Jimmy was here. I think it's OK to hate the style and schemes Thibs has forced down this franchises throat and the way he handled the Butler situation from top to bottom including the double standard he treated him from others. But if Thibs adapts, that's what we were hoping for when he was signed. Glen may be the most forgiving owner in sports at this point. That's the key. If Thibs is open to change, this team could be a more talented version of the Clippers which is likely good enough to be a playoff team. We just need a few 3-4 game winning streaks to get into position where 42-46 wins is possible again.
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Nov 17, 2018 10:02:05 GMT -6
Barring a total collapse, I would expect thibs back for all of next year, even if we miss the playoffs this season.
Taylor is not going to be quick to cut a check for him to go away. I think we will have to miss the playoffs the next 2 years before thibs would be fired
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Post by kingsxman on Nov 17, 2018 11:56:52 GMT -6
Barring a total collapse, I would expect thibs back for all of next year, even if we miss the playoffs this season. Taylor is not going to be quick to cut a check for him to go away. I think we will have to miss the playoffs the next 2 years before thibs would be fired If we dont make the playoffs Thibs isnt back at all for anything. I think you can take that too the bank.
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Post by levine on Nov 17, 2018 12:02:10 GMT -6
Barring a total collapse, I would expect thibs back for all of next year, even if we miss the playoffs this season. Taylor is not going to be quick to cut a check for him to go away. I think we will have to miss the playoffs the next 2 years before thibs would be fired If we dont make the playoffs Thibs isnt back at all for anything. I think you can take that too the bank. Taylor basically said as much after the trade. Thibs gets a "reset" right now, but he clearly expects better results than last year.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 17, 2018 15:16:00 GMT -6
Barring a total collapse, I would expect thibs back for all of next year, even if we miss the playoffs this season. Taylor is not going to be quick to cut a check for him to go away. I think we will have to miss the playoffs the next 2 years before thibs would be fired If we dont make the playoffs Thibs isnt back at all for anything. I think you can take that too the bank. I agree. Fail to make the playoffs...fired. Makes the playoffs...stays as coach.
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jr
Junior Member
Posts: 298
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Post by jr on Nov 17, 2018 16:22:16 GMT -6
So, we're not going to be able to root wholeheartedly for wins. Damn! At least the games we lose won't hurt so much if we know it'll be the demise of Thibs. How sad is that?
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Post by Bonecrusher on Nov 17, 2018 18:22:17 GMT -6
So here's the million dollar question: Lets say Thibs gets these guys in the playoffs (long shot) and they actually win a series. Now what? If that happens...it would be BECAUSE Thibs has changed his ways a bit and moved into a more modern approach. Lets say the "happiness" we are seeing with the team now doesnt dissapate as time goes on. Is there a scenario where Thibs gets another year? Id prefer to move on regardless...but I could see Glen keeping him as coach. I think the front office job is done after the year regardless. Here's a good question: Gun to your head and you had to keep Thibs as either POBO or coach which would you take? You have to take one. I've gone back and forth on this. his drafting has been ok but then also really bad (Patton). He did get good value for Butler in the end...but could have done the deal earlier and maybe alleviated headaches. I initially said i'd keep him as POBO but I think I have to go coach. As POBO he'd hire a clone of himself to coach where as coach he is going to have to report to the POBO. So that lessons the damage. Take the bullet. Thibs has gotten this team by pure luck. Okogie and KBD both were PBA during the draft and no brainers. The Philly trade was not Thibs doing at all. His stubbornness with trading Butler may have gotten us both Saric and Covington but pure luck that Philly offered players that worked perfectly for our team.
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Nov 19, 2018 10:42:02 GMT -6
So here's the million dollar question: Lets say Thibs gets these guys in the playoffs (long shot) and they actually win a series. Now what? If that happens...it would be BECAUSE Thibs has changed his ways a bit and moved into a more modern approach. Lets say the "happiness" we are seeing with the team now doesnt dissapate as time goes on. Is there a scenario where Thibs gets another year? Id prefer to move on regardless...but I could see Glen keeping him as coach. I think the front office job is done after the year regardless. Here's a good question: Gun to your head and you had to keep Thibs as either POBO or coach which would you take? You have to take one. I've gone back and forth on this. his drafting has been ok but then also really bad (Patton). He did get good value for Butler in the end...but could have done the deal earlier and maybe alleviated headaches. I initially said i'd keep him as POBO but I think I have to go coach. As POBO he'd hire a clone of himself to coach where as coach he is going to have to report to the POBO. So that lessons the damage. Take the bullet. Thibs has gotten this team by pure luck. Okogie and KBD both were PBA during the draft and no brainers. The Philly trade was not Thibs doing at all. His stubbornness with trading Butler may have gotten us both Saric and Covington but pure luck that Philly offered players that worked perfectly for our team. If you are willing to crucify the guy for the bad stuff (messing up the Jimmy saga), you have to be ready to give him credit for the good stuff (team playing good as of right now). Otherwise you just don't like him personally. BTW, do you think PHI would trade Cov/Saric/Bayles for Lavine/Dunn/Markanen? I don't think they would go for that trade. Which makes the Buttler deal palatable for MIN: they got a playoff showing and better fitting players for the way the team is shaping up to be built for the future. When you put it this way, Thibs is doing a heck of a job... why would anybody call for his head... Just a different perspective...
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Post by Bob Oppenheimer on Nov 19, 2018 11:25:24 GMT -6
If we dont make the playoffs Thibs isnt back at all for anything. I think you can take that too the bank. Taylor basically said as much after the trade. Thibs gets a "reset" right now, but he clearly expects better results than last year. as you posted above, taylor's expectations are that they improve, and that likely includes making the playoffs again. I just dont think thibs is fired if he fails to meet that expectation this year. the money is too much for taylor to swallow. if we miss the playoffs, thibs will be scolded for failing to meet expectations, but will have another year to correct the situation.
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