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Post by tjstyles on Nov 30, 2018 14:17:01 GMT -6
Not at all. He's been a significant contributor for a while in Europe and in the spotlight. I was backing you up. Luka's a very good player but he's not a rookie in the sense of 1st year pro, which seems like is your point. I see. I thought you were offering a counter point. I was addressing pagliatti's point that he feels players should be brought along slowly and not be given a large work load right off the bat and and should instead focus on off-court physical development and watching film. While the vastly different limitations in age make EuroLeague and interesting comp to the NBA, my point is that there haven't been many (if any) players who have spent a lot of time in EuroBall "holding a clipboard" that have gone on to dominate the court. Luka developed his skills on the court, not in the weight and film rooms. The problems for Wiggins and LaVine were not caused by them seeing so many minutes on the court; they were caused by them not growing from that time on the court as much as the average player (actually, for LaVine, he grew a whole heck of a lot; his problem was he started out so absolutely terrible, that a huge amount of growth got him up to below average).
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Post by pagliatti on Dec 3, 2018 18:02:20 GMT -6
Doncic was brought to Madrid at 13 y/o. He had some of the very best players in Slovenia giving tips to him and his father was fairly competent in their domestic league. His father chose Madrid due to the work with Mirotic in his two junior years. Pablo Laso closely watched at the farm team and as the first team coach he could always ask the developmental coach to do this and that: an Iowa Wolves so to speak with the chance to play the kid against similarly aged kids or against pros in a lower competition depending on his own development rythm and Laso gut. It was far from a "this kid is good, drop him there, see what happens".
The Air Mexico/Nasa angle has some limitations. If NBA teams could nurture 14 y/o they would do so. The farming system is just different and the best talent being there doesn't mean the raising system is bullet proof. There are players who are clueless and get in the 1st round every year so monitorization is obviously flawed; simply put, the inability to have a competent/controlled minors program gets in the way.
There are players who will swim if you play them. It doesn't necessarily mean they are making the correct play, in fact they could end being worse just because they were forced to produce, flaws will be remarkable when compensating to play up to competition (missed assignments, convolute ballhandling,bad shot selection all are easy acquired and sometimes become lifelong diseases). Comparing them to LeBron is actually a good reason of their fail: Luka Doncic could be way more limited and would still find a way because he is just a complete player who plays without agenda, rarely forces the issue and even then he will regain composure in a pinch. Then you see Beasley before the NBA stints, an extremely gifted player, and you wonder who took responsibility of that alleged growth.
IMO cases that could use immediate playing time over development are rather scarce and many of them fly with Air Mexico, they just started in a correct environment.
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Post by tjstyles on Dec 4, 2018 9:57:01 GMT -6
Doncic was brought to Madrid at 13 y/o. He had some of the very best players in Slovenia giving tips to him and his father was fairly competent in their domestic league. His father chose Madrid due to the work with Mirotic in his two junior years. Pablo Laso closely watched at the farm team and as the first team coach he could always ask the developmental coach to do this and that: an Iowa Wolves so to speak with the chance to play the kid against similarly aged kids or against pros in a lower competition depending on his own development rythm and Laso gut. It was far from a "this kid is good, drop him there, see what happens". The Air Mexico/Nasa angle has some limitations. If NBA teams could nurture 14 y/o they would do so. The farming system is just different and the best talent being there doesn't mean the raising system is bullet proof. There are players who are clueless and get in the 1st round every year so monitorization is obviously flawed; simply put, the inability to have a competent/controlled minors program gets in the way. There are players who will swim if you play them. It doesn't necessarily mean they are making the correct play, in fact they could end being worse just because they were forced to produce, flaws will be remarkable when compensating to play up to competition (missed assignments, convolute ballhandling,bad shot selection all are easy acquired and sometimes become lifelong diseases). Comparing them to LeBron is actually a good reason of their fail: Luka Doncic could be way more limited and would still find a way because he is just a complete player who plays without agenda, rarely forces the issue and even then he will regain composure in a pinch. Then you see Beasley before the NBA stints, an extremely gifted player, and you wonder who took responsibility of that alleged growth. IMO cases that could use immediate playing time over development are rather scarce and many of them fly with Air Mexico, they just started in a correct environment. I am not suggesting that there are no players develop better when they are given more time to develop off of the court, nor and I arguing that player who are not giving large minutes right off the bat will never grow into a good player. Steve Nash was slowly brought into the NBA, and he turned out pretty good. But, he had the same issues on defense that Wiggins and LaVine have, and his slow integration into the NBA did absolutely nothing to improve his reaction time on the the defensive end. Wiggins and LaVine's deficiencies aren't, in my opinion, something you learn on the sidelines or by watching tape or by hitting the weight room. They are lacking instincts that you either have innate or that you develop through repetition. I am not suggesting that nobody will ever benefit from focusing on stuff off of the court; I am suggesting that I do not believe Wiggins or LaVine are players that would. I am also not convinced that Okogie would be better suited with development off the court. During the off season, sure. But, I don't think that Okogie's physical strength is negatively impacting his development on the court today. He is still learning how to play in the NBA. An old-school center is much more impacted by lack of strength while they are on the court as it inhibits their ability to even get reps doing what they do and hurts their ability to defend as well. But, even then, I am still a proponent of strength training vs. other players more than with weights. Not to say that they shouldn't hit the weights as well, but practical development is just as, if not more, valuable than generalist development. To me, the players that need the most time off the court to develop are the ones that don't have the fundamentals down. If they don't have a proper shooting stroke or proper footwork. Or a point guard that doesn't have a proper handle, etc. The things that are developed through multiple repetitions to build muscle memory are the things you develop without other players on the court. Wiggins and LaVine make bad decisions on the court. That is developed through being on the court and learning from your mistakes. The problem with Wiggins and LaVine isn't that they were put on the court too early; it's that they don't learn from their mistakes. I believe that with LaVine, it's because he doesn't doesn't get it, and with Wiggins it's because he thinks he's a top tier player that doesn't really make mistakes.
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Post by pagliatti on Dec 5, 2018 11:04:33 GMT -6
Disagreement is at a different level. The NBA has changed/improved a lot in this regard but there are some roadblocks implemented in the system. Scoring is extremely overrated so some guys will take a prominent role as pure volume and gamble on that aspect to score a boatload of money. It works so it is valid but it is a crying shame at the same time. So many talents wasted because development put all eggs on that basket. Of course you can't disagree with Love, Lavine, Jabari ransom, though.
There was an interview with Joe Arlauckas-big star in Europe as the PF next to Sabonis, small stint in the NBA- where he clearly expressed the different treatment of the asset at both sides of the ocean. When Arlauckas played in the NBA it was much more sink or swim there than nowadays, almost to the point of "pass the whole night clubbing as long as you come and produce". When he gets to Spain and the coach even monitorizes sugar, salt and pepper- he raised his eyebrows. When coaches had snitches in the roster just to inform about any sort of player plot he was also surprised. At the same time Zeljko Rebraca was ordering a gin tonic at a hotel lobby in the NBA.
The NBA still has room to improve. Pau is far from just a natural talent, he was extremely gifted to start with but Pepiño Casal took charge of the physical aspect of the Barcelona team-Pau and JCN playing there- in 1999 and became his personal trainer in 2003 to 2008. This guy basically designed a personal plan which took his physical development and game requirements just as he was a car or any other similar asset. It took into account age, game plan, expectations, schedule, everything. When you take a look at Marc's body change you might assume it was similar stuff. They knew there was advantage to exploit there, not just your run of the mill shooting coach.
I am aware guys in the NBA get strong blazing fast; that's not particularly difficult even for the average joe. But there are many other aspects in the mid and long term that have me cringing: when I hear about Big Al Subway diet or Love getting a personal chef, that is just one team, the same team. Like, it is not nearly enough, it sounds almost as a joke. Curry might create confidence out of being the son of Dell, of being a lights out shooter,of being part of such a talented team. Some guys just don't bring the ammo to compensate and partially it is out there, there are paths unexplored- I remember a player of Deportivo de la Coruña (soccer team) using an scale to weigh food when eating with the rest of the team, that's min/max at its finest. Little details to put pressure on more talented guys. You will win but I'll wear you out. Hard work trumps talent when talent doesn't work hard so just up the ante.
Probably the constant remarks to Spain are related, more than any chauvinistic penchant, to the country going really "Ivan Drago" with sports, without the PEDs mostly. Soccer paved the way but one thing was clear, starting pretty early with kids and putting them on strict regimes always pays off. Nowadays it is not enough to have parents with sport background, it is important to get the basic tools at a young age to be able to shift whatever while you keep growing. That is a system producing hundreds of elite guys, an anomaly considering population and latin heritage, shorties not particularly strong.
Probably a good coach would forbid Zach or Andrew when they were 15 y/o to take any shot to the basket while they got reps off the ball. But the recruiting system not exactly in line with future events and the "they don't pay you to play D" are real. They were instructed to lift the team bombarding the bucket without remorse and then their destiny was kind of sealed. Anybody who coaches will tell you that it is easier to write on a clean paper than erase whatever is already written. To salvage an Adrian Payne, Shabazz career would take most of their prime and it is not the safest bet. If I were an NBA coach I would probably implement a "Ludovico's Technique" with most rookies to reset their hard disk. They would play very little and work harder than anybody else and their lack of exposure while the contract runs off would incentivize them to keep with the program. Some would question the system but youngsters are also looking at results, it does not matter whether you are a bulldog of a coach when you are getting success to many guys careers.
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Post by tjstyles on Dec 5, 2018 11:38:24 GMT -6
Disagreement is at a different level. The NBA has changed/improved a lot in this regard but there are some roadblocks implemented in the system. Scoring is extremely overrated so some guys will take a prominent role as pure volume and gamble on that aspect to score a boatload of money. It works so it is valid but it is a crying shame at the same time. So many talents wasted because development put all eggs on that basket. Of course you can't disagree with Love, Lavine, Jabari ransom, though. There was an interview with Joe Arlauckas-big star in Europe as the PF next to Sabonis, small stint in the NBA- where he clearly expressed the different treatment of the asset at both sides of the ocean. When Arlauckas played in the NBA it was much more sink or swim there than nowadays, almost to the point of "pass the whole night clubbing as long as you come and produce". When he gets to Spain and the coach even monitorizes sugar, salt and pepper- he raised his eyebrows. When coaches had snitches in the roster just to inform about any sort of player plot he was also surprised. At the same time Zeljko Rebraca was ordering a gin tonic at a hotel lobby in the NBA. The NBA still has room to improve. Pau is far from just a natural talent, he was extremely gifted to start with but Pepiño Casal took charge of the physical aspect of the Barcelona team-Pau and JCN playing there- in 1999 and became his personal trainer in 2003 to 2008. This guy basically designed a personal plan which took his physical development and game requirements just as he was a car or any other similar asset. It took into account age, game plan, expectations, schedule, everything. When you take a look at Marc's body change you might assume it was similar stuff. They knew there was advantage to exploit there, not just your run of the mill shooting coach. I am aware guys in the NBA get strong blazing fast; that's not particularly difficult even for the average joe. But there are many other aspects in the mid and long term that have me cringing: when I hear about Big Al Subway diet or Love getting a personal chef, that is just one team, the same team. Like, it is not nearly enough, it sounds almost as a joke. Curry might create confidence out of being the son of Dell, of being a lights out shooter,of being part of such a talented team. Some guys just don't bring the ammo to compensate and partially it is out there, there are paths unexplored- I remember a player of Deportivo de la Coruña (soccer team) using an scale to weigh food when eating with the rest of the team, that's min/max at its finest. Little details to put pressure on more talented guys. You will win but I'll wear you out. Hard work trumps talent when talent doesn't work hard so just up the ante. Probably the constant remarks to Spain are related, more than any chauvinistic penchant, to the country going really "Ivan Drago" with sports, without the PEDs mostly. Soccer paved the way but one thing was clear, starting pretty early with kids and putting them on strict regimes always pays off. Nowadays it is not enough to have parents with sport background, it is important to get the basic tools at a young age to be able to shift whatever while you keep growing. That is a system producing hundreds of elite guys, an anomaly considering population and latin heritage, shorties not particularly strong. Probably a good coach would forbid Zach or Andrew when they were 15 y/o to take any shot to the basket while they got reps off the ball. But the recruiting system not exactly in line with future events and the "they don't pay you to play D" are real. They were instructed to lift the team bombarding the bucket without remorse and then their destiny was kind of sealed. Anybody who coaches will tell you that it is easier to write on a clean paper than erase whatever is already written. To salvage an Adrian Payne, Shabazz career would take most of their prime and it is not the safest bet. If I were an NBA coach I would probably implement a "Ludovico's Technique" with most rookies to reset their hard disk. They would play very little and work harder than anybody else and their lack of exposure while the contract runs off would incentivize them to keep with the program. Some would question the system but youngsters are also looking at results, it does not matter whether you are a bulldog of a coach when you are getting success to many guys careers. This is nothing at all that you said before. You said that Wiggins and Zach (and now Okogie) were/are hampered by being asked to play significant early in their NBA careers. I don't necessarily disagree with this new post, but not one of these points were part of your original argument. Now, I do agree that the "yay, points" thing is a big problem in the NBA. I also agree that coaching at the lower levels in the US leaves much to be desired. There are some really, really good coaches and some coaches that should not be allowed to coach. Unfortunately, once you get to the high school level, coaches are incentivized to win, not to develop talent properly. This causes them to ignore trying to break down a "good player" to help make them a great player. It just gets worse at the college level. But, I am not sure how the NBA can be "blamed" for what did or did not happen to Wiggins in Canada when he was 15 years old. I also think that it is a bit over board for coaches to regulate the amount of sugar or other things a player consumes. The team makes nutritionists and physical trainers available to the players and it is up to the player themselves to take advantage of them or not. That, in my opinion, is how it should be. There were several companies in the US that decided to try and enforce a healthy living standard to help reduce their health care costs and they were sued and lost. You give the tools to someone to be successful, help them when they need help and see what they can do. But, most of it is up to that person. They have to actually decide they want to improve and put the work in to be great. You can't force it on them. The difference between the absolute greats and the could have beens is desire. It has very little to do with the people around them. The people that have the drive to be the best will make their own success. Big Al and Love taking control of their nutrition is an example of that. Every player has the ability to choose to eat better. And most teams offer a very large amount of support to the players that want to choose to eat better. But, it takes a player choosing to eat better for anything to work. And, I am very strongly opposed to the idea that teams should enforce these lifestyle choices. The team has the ability to choose not to pay a player that does not commit themselves to being better. The teams just currently decide to reward players for not committing. But, I will say that it makes perfect sense that the teams take that stance. The average fan loves scoring. Whether it is Football, Baseball, Soccer or Basketball. Nobody screams "Bloooooooooooooooooooock!!!" on a great defensive play, but they absolutely scream "Goooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal!!!!" when someone scores a goal. High scoring teams make as much money as winning teams. Owners want to make money. Obviously they want to win the championship, too, for bragging rights and because a 7-game finals appearance means at least 3 more home games worth of revenue and likely a boatload of more jersey sales, but they care more about the money they get. This creates a culture that rewards success on the offensive side from the fans to the owners to the GMs to the coaches over hard work on the defensive side. But, at the end of the day, I still go back to Wiggins and LaVine not improving because of them, not because the coaches gave them minutes. If it isn't enough reps off the court, that is on them. Derrick Rose went out and got himself a shooting coach and worked every day on what he needed to improve, and he got better. If Wiggins and LaVine don't feel like putting in the extra effort, it isn't the coaches fault, and it certainly isn't caused by them giving them minutes on the court. The coaches in the NBA allowing players to keep the freedoms they are granted by the Constitution of the United States of America are not the scapegoat for Wiggins and LaVine playing poorly. The fact that Wiggins and LaVine simply aren't that good and aren't overly committed to improving themselves is what should be to blame.
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Post by vlad on Dec 5, 2018 15:48:42 GMT -6
I think I found a perfect destination for Wiggins (if there is one). He could actually help Utah. They need to make some changes there. They need offense and AW might defend well with other guys playing hard D. He will function better with Rubio on the floor. So he might turn to be a decent, just overpaid player. The good part is that Utah might actually be interested. What they would send us back is another question. May be Favors and Ingles for AW and Saric, I don't know. But they could use AW and we need to get rid of him ASAP. Because after this season he will be untradable at all.
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Post by levine on Dec 5, 2018 15:51:23 GMT -6
I think I found a perfect destination for Wiggins (if there is one). He could actually help Utah. They need to make some changes there. They need offense and AW might defend well with other guys playing hard D. He will function better with Rubio on the floor. So he might turn to be a decent, just overpaid player. The good part is that Utah might actually be interested. What they would send us back is another question. May be Favors and Ingles for AW and Saric, I don't know. But they could use AW and we need to get rid of him ASAP. Because after this season he will be untradable at all. Unfortunately I think Dennis Lindsay is too smart for that...
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Post by vlad on Dec 5, 2018 16:19:04 GMT -6
I think I found a perfect destination for Wiggins (if there is one). He could actually help Utah. They need to make some changes there. They need offense and AW might defend well with other guys playing hard D. He will function better with Rubio on the floor. So he might turn to be a decent, just overpaid player. The good part is that Utah might actually be interested. What they would send us back is another question. May be Favors and Ingles for AW and Saric, I don't know. But they could use AW and we need to get rid of him ASAP. Because after this season he will be untradable at all. Unfortunately I think Dennis Lindsay is too smart for that... But I really think that AW might actually make them better, if they would add him for nothing. So the question is what can they afford to give up for him. Because Gobbert is the anchor of their defense. If they'd substitute Favors with Saric, not much would have changed, except add some more spacing. And Wiggins is a lot more aggressive scorer then Ingles or Crawford, so it would take some pressure off Mitchell. After all AW could easily average 23-25 ppg. Not in the most efficient way, but with their defense it would be passable. At least it is possible to imagine Wiggins doing well in Utah, unlike any other team in NBA, don't you think?
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Post by levine on Dec 5, 2018 16:37:39 GMT -6
Unfortunately I think Dennis Lindsay is too smart for that... But I really think that AW might actually make them better, if they would add him for nothing. So the question is what can they afford to give up for him. Because Gobbert is the anchor of their defense. If they'd substitute Favors with Saric, not much would have changed, except add some more spacing. And Wiggins is a lot more aggressive scorer then Ingles or Crawford, so it would take some pressure off Mitchell. After all AW could easily average 23-25 ppg. Not in the most efficient way, but with their defense it would be passable. At least it is possible to imagine Wiggins doing well in Utah, unlike any other team in NBA, don't you think? Not really because they have a smart GM and a smart HC. And they're grooming Mitchell to be their Alpha Wing. Plus Ingles is SO MUCH better than Wiggins on both ends of the floor. I think we need to find a stupid team that is in desperate need of a stud wing and could be deluded enough to think they can get more out of Wiggins. Orlando, Sacramento, Washington, maybe Phoenix...
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Post by vlad on Dec 5, 2018 18:07:31 GMT -6
But I really think that AW might actually make them better, if they would add him for nothing. So the question is what can they afford to give up for him. Because Gobbert is the anchor of their defense. If they'd substitute Favors with Saric, not much would have changed, except add some more spacing. And Wiggins is a lot more aggressive scorer then Ingles or Crawford, so it would take some pressure off Mitchell. After all AW could easily average 23-25 ppg. Not in the most efficient way, but with their defense it would be passable. At least it is possible to imagine Wiggins doing well in Utah, unlike any other team in NBA, don't you think? Not really because they have a smart GM and a smart HC. And they're grooming Mitchell to be their Alpha Wing. Plus Ingles is SO MUCH better than Wiggins on both ends of the floor. I think we need to find a stupid team that is in desperate need of a stud wing and could be deluded enough to think they can get more out of Wiggins. Orlando, Sacramento, Washington, maybe Phoenix... Orlando is actually doing well this year. Sacramento is not going to mess anything up while they are winning. Washington already have Porter, so why would they take AW? Not clear. And Phoenix, I'm not sure, but they might want to trade Ariza for AW and absorb the contract. So that's a possibility. But AW has a chance to get better in Utah, but I do not see him becoming a useful player in any of those teams you named.
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Post by levine on Dec 5, 2018 18:23:39 GMT -6
Not really because they have a smart GM and a smart HC. And they're grooming Mitchell to be their Alpha Wing. Plus Ingles is SO MUCH better than Wiggins on both ends of the floor. I think we need to find a stupid team that is in desperate need of a stud wing and could be deluded enough to think they can get more out of Wiggins. Orlando, Sacramento, Washington, maybe Phoenix... Orlando is actually doing well this year. Sacramento is not going to mess anything up while they are winning. Washington already have Porter, so why would they take AW? Not clear. And Phoenix, I'm not sure, but they might want to trade Ariza for AW and absorb the contract. So that's a possibility. But AW has a chance to get better in Utah, but I do not see him becoming a useful player in any of those teams you named. Orlando doesn't really have any wings besides Fournier - who isn't very good. That team is capped at mediocrity unless they take a big swing. Something like Isaac, Ross and Simmons for Wiggins could work. Sacramento will likely fade some, but their front office is a mess and they were willing to way overpay for Zach LaVine. Porter wants out of Washington and they're not happy with him. I don't think Wiggins makes any sense in Utah - especially with a very analytic-driven front office.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Dec 5, 2018 19:51:56 GMT -6
Orlando is actually doing well this year. Sacramento is not going to mess anything up while they are winning. Washington already have Porter, so why would they take AW? Not clear. And Phoenix, I'm not sure, but they might want to trade Ariza for AW and absorb the contract. So that's a possibility. But AW has a chance to get better in Utah, but I do not see him becoming a useful player in any of those teams you named. Orlando doesn't really have any wings besides Fournier - who isn't very good. That team is capped at mediocrity unless they take a big swing. Something like Isaac, Ross and Simmons for Wiggins could work. Sacramento will likely fade some, but their front office is a mess and they were willing to way overpay for Zach LaVine. Porter wants out of Washington and they're not happy with him. I don't think Wiggins makes any sense in Utah - especially with a very analytic-driven front office. Wiggins for Porter straight up and it's probably best for both teams.
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Post by The Country Club on Dec 6, 2018 3:35:59 GMT -6
Orlando doesn't really have any wings besides Fournier - who isn't very good. That team is capped at mediocrity unless they take a big swing. Something like Isaac, Ross and Simmons for Wiggins could work. Sacramento will likely fade some, but their front office is a mess and they were willing to way overpay for Zach LaVine. Porter wants out of Washington and they're not happy with him. I don't think Wiggins makes any sense in Utah - especially with a very analytic-driven front office. Wiggins for Porter straight up and it's probably best for both teams. I don't see how that helps the Wizards one bit since Porter was griping about shots and touches. Adding a wannabe alpha wing to that mix? Grunfield is a bit of a dope but I don't think he'd see value in that trade. IF the Wizards do trade Wall and depending on what comes back, maybe it can be looked at.
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Post by vlad on Dec 6, 2018 8:48:58 GMT -6
Wiggins for Porter straight up and it's probably best for both teams. I don't see how that helps the Wizards one bit since Porter was griping about shots and touches. Adding a wannabe alpha wing to that mix? Grunfield is a bit of a dope but I don't think he'd see value in that trade. IF the Wizards do trade Wall and depending on what comes back, maybe it can be looked at. I agree that if they dump Wall and Beal then they might look in that trade for AW. But not before that.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Dec 6, 2018 10:23:59 GMT -6
Wiggins for Porter straight up and it's probably best for both teams. I don't see how that helps the Wizards one bit since Porter was griping about shots and touches. Adding a wannabe alpha wing to that mix? Grunfield is a bit of a dope but I don't think he'd see value in that trade. IF the Wizards do trade Wall and depending on what comes back, maybe it can be looked at. Wiggins doesn't complain about touches. Catch and shoot player. Wiggins will be a happy camper there and things will settle down. Worse they can do is say no.
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