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Post by levine on Sept 8, 2018 9:21:29 GMT -6
Like I’ve been saying: Gibson is a good player, but his style may be too old school when compared to top outfits in the West.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 8, 2018 9:26:36 GMT -6
Like I’ve been saying: Gibson is a good player, but his style may be too old school when compared to top outfits in the West. also, like I've been saying....Deng on its own isnt necessarily a bad signing. Its once you take in the whole picture and pattern of behavior that it becomes questionable. He lays it out very well when he says "But it’s a little distressing to see Thibodeau continue to look backward as opposed to forward when constructing his roster." That is exactly what I'm getting at.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 10, 2018 9:40:05 GMT -6
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 10:05:45 GMT -6
I don't see why Miami would want him. They have an extremely smart front office. And I'm sure he expects Thibs will give him minutes (and he's probably right...).
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Post by Nick K on Sept 10, 2018 10:23:10 GMT -6
I don't see why Miami would want him. They have an extremely smart front office.And I'm sure he expects Thibs will give him minutes (and he's probably right...). :)
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 12:57:09 GMT -6
Shams Charania@ShamsCharania Free agent Luol Deng has reached agreement on a one-year, $2.4M deal with Minnesota, pending physical, per league sources.
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 13:09:10 GMT -6
This Luol Deng signing pushes the Wolves over the luxury tax line and will thus likely lead to another roster move — so as to get back below the tax.
I would guess the most likely is waiving James Nunnally before his contract fully-guarantees on January 11th, 2019.
— Dane Moore (@danemoorenba) September 10, 2018
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 14:38:20 GMT -6
Aaron Gleeman✔@aarongleeman Tom Thibodeau's current roster now has exactly as many members of the 2011-2012 Chicago Bulls (Butler, Gibson, Deng, Rose) as the 2016-2017 Minnesota Timberwolves (Towns, Wiggins, Dieng, Jones) — four apiece.
12:32 PM - Sep 10, 2018
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 14:44:55 GMT -6
This Luol Deng signing pushes the Wolves over the luxury tax line and will thus likely lead to another roster move — so as to get back below the tax. I would guess the most likely is waiving James Nunnally before his contract fully-guarantees on January 11th, 2019. — Dane Moore (@danemoorenba) September 10, 2018 Apparently that's if we sign a 15th player: Dane Moore@DaneMooreNBA 58m58 minutes ago To clarify Wolves tax situation: They are currently $1,365,463 under the tax with 14 players under roster, after signing Luol Deng. Signing a 15th player (Joakim Noah or anyone) would boost the Wolves over the tax, as for tax purposes any signing counts a $1,512,601.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 10, 2018 15:11:13 GMT -6
This Luol Deng signing pushes the Wolves over the luxury tax line and will thus likely lead to another roster move — so as to get back below the tax. I would guess the most likely is waiving James Nunnally before his contract fully-guarantees on January 11th, 2019. — Dane Moore (@danemoorenba) September 10, 2018 Ugg. I dont mind the Deng signing other than the incredibly poor optics...but i do NOT want to have other players we should be looking at lose playing time over this.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Sept 10, 2018 15:30:14 GMT -6
And I'm back to disliking Thibs again.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 10, 2018 16:12:15 GMT -6
I might be in for hockey substitutions with the 2nd unit at the usual occasions. Tyus, Rose, Deng, Tolliver and Gorgui at least would be an experienced group. If we can at least hold our own with the 2nd unit we should be in good shape.
Come to think of it, that group might be better than some starting lineups of Wolves past.
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 16:33:06 GMT -6
I might be in for hockey substitutions with the 2nd unit at the usual occasions. Tyus, Rose, Deng, Tolliver and Gorgui at least would be an experienced group. If we can at least hold our own with the 2nd unit we should be in good shape.
Come to think of it, that group might be better than some starting lineups of Wolves past.
Please no... Unless its a blowout there is no reason to have 5 bench players in the game at once. Good coaches stagger their line-ups throughout the game. Bad coaches try to jump ahead with starters and hold on for dear life with reserves. We're a Noah release away from being able to play the full Bulls 2011 line-up...
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Post by tjstyles on Sept 10, 2018 16:33:13 GMT -6
I might be in for hockey substitutions with the 2nd unit at the usual occasions. Tyus, Rose, Deng, Tolliver and Gorgui at least would be an experienced group. If we can at least hold our own with the 2nd unit we should be in good shape.
Come to think of it, that group might be better than some starting lineups of Wolves past.
Lowest...bar...ever.
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Post by levine on Sept 10, 2018 16:45:19 GMT -6
Jon Krawczynski✔@jonkrawczynski Wolves continue to do due diligence on available vets even after locking up Deng. Monta Ellis, Brandon Paul and Brandon Rush among those to work out, @shamscharania and I hear.
2:42 PM - Sep 10, 2018
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Post by vlad on Sept 10, 2018 17:55:42 GMT -6
It's a pretty good pick up in a vacuum. But it highlights the insecurity of Thibs the coach.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 10, 2018 22:16:29 GMT -6
It's a pretty good pick up in a vacuum. But it highlights the insecurity of Thibs the coach.
That's it Vlad. INSECURITY.
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Post by pagliatti on Sept 11, 2018 4:30:49 GMT -6
Come on guys. There is some value on continuity. The players know what to expect from the coach and vice versa. A central factor to a contender is...to steal value, beat the market from your core: TD/Manu/Parker and all but Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry were robbed every offseason. Haslem or Nick Collison signed pretty nice home discounts. I don't care whether Thibs rehash past projects as much as the ability going forward to keep a capable core without breaking the bank.
Long story short, if KAT, Wiggins and JB get- rightfully or not- maxed they will need bargains around. It happens that some old unwanted toys who suffered through projects which didn't cater to them also had some familiarity with Thibs. They should have a chip on their shoulder- I´m not done, I was unfairly treated- and a very nice season from any of those players doesn't necessarily mean difficulty bargaining going forward. You need your Pachulias, your "more useful for me than for you" players whom you resign on minimum contracts every single offseason.
TL;DR a contender needs several players with some motivation to do well other than getting a raise who also fly under the market's radar- let's call them persistent role players, sometimes ringchasers, sometimes specialists.
Of course if you are able to put them into a credible role that's some major step going forward. Those players live now without the burden of their former albatross contract and its expectations, not being able to be a main cog is not the same as being cooked. Play for a coach who still cares enough for them to understand where their body is and what capacities they could have left to help the team.
The chance to retain a guy capable of 10+ minutes of barely decent playing time at the vet minimum year after year is a great asset. Every team out there goes after that but not every "formerly capable" player has a game that could be shaped into that.
Wolves have the possibility to keep most of their group while expecting home discounts from some players- Teague, Gorgui and Gibson have some reason to be grateful-; the market will be limited for most of the rotation and they could like it here enough to disregard offers in the ballpark. The tough part is to max JB/KAT.
Another good point about steady vets is their ability to lower the perceived value of some of your promising guns. Tyus could get out of reach without Rose on the roster, the bargaining power of some other pieces could get too high as the GM couldn't afford to lose them. One thing is to bomb their value altogether but it is also unfair that they get too much recognition just because of a paper thin rotation.
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Post by kingsxman on Sept 11, 2018 11:29:13 GMT -6
Come on guys. There is some value on continuity. The players know what to expect from the coach and vice versa. A central factor to a contender is...to steal value, beat the market from your core: TD/Manu/Parker and all but Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry were robbed every offseason. Haslem or Nick Collison signed pretty nice home discounts. I don't care whether Thibs rehash past projects as much as the ability going forward to keep a capable core without breaking the bank. Highlighting part of your post because I agree with that...but I dont agree with what YOU think it stands for. Beating the market means being "ahead" of the curve. Its finding the Manu's, the Parkers, the Bowens from the pool of talent. Its not always going out and picking from players that you already know what they bring. You never find a diamond if your always looking for an emerald.
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Post by cory on Sept 11, 2018 11:42:37 GMT -6
I've always liked Deng. The thing I don't get now is we don't need another SF-PF. If anything, we need a backup center. Everybody talks Gorgui as a PF but he's really a center and not a very good one at his salary. If the Knicks settle things with Noah, I'd rather have him as a backup center. He and Deng are only 33 years old or so. Noah can still play. Huh? If Kat plays 36-38 minutes a night at Center, that means we have 10-12 minutes of backup Center time available. We currently have Dieng, Gibson, Tolliver, and Patton who could and should fill all of those minutes. I don't think the team particularly needs Deng because he absolutely is not a wing at this point in his career but he's a better fit than Noah at the moment. And I also am sure that Deng will play some wing and those will be some of the worst lineups the team puts out on the court.
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Post by levine on Sept 11, 2018 12:10:20 GMT -6
I've always liked Deng. The thing I don't get now is we don't need another SF-PF. If anything, we need a backup center. Everybody talks Gorgui as a PF but he's really a center and not a very good one at his salary. If the Knicks settle things with Noah, I'd rather have him as a backup center. He and Deng are only 33 years old or so. Noah can still play. Huh? If Kat plays 36-38 minutes a night at Center, that means we have 10-12 minutes of backup Center time available. We currently have Dieng, Gibson, Tolliver, and Patton who could and should fill all of those minutes. I don't think the team particularly needs Deng because he absolutely is not a wing at this point in his career but he's a better fit than Noah at the moment. And I also am sure that Deng will play some wing and those will be some of the worst lineups the team puts out on the court. Agreed. I actually hope Thibs is forward thinking enough to use Tolliver at C in some smaller line-ups. But Thibs still really seems to love playing two bigs, no matter the situation, so we'll see...
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Post by Nick K on Sept 11, 2018 13:01:14 GMT -6
Huh? If Kat plays 36-38 minutes a night at Center, that means we have 10-12 minutes of backup Center time available. We currently have Dieng, Gibson, Tolliver, and Patton who could and should fill all of those minutes. I don't think the team particularly needs Deng because he absolutely is not a wing at this point in his career but he's a better fit than Noah at the moment. And I also am sure that Deng will play some wing and those will be some of the worst lineups the team puts out on the court. Agreed. I actually hope Thibs is forward thinking enough to use Tolliver at C in some smaller line-ups. But Thibs still really seems to love playing two bigs, no matter the situation, so we'll see...
Gibson and Tolliver really aren't centers. In certain matchups you can use either in a pinch. We don't want KAT and the starters playing 38 minutes a game either.
I'm just saying we have a lot of 3-4's. Who knows with Patton? At this point he doesn't count. Now that we have Deng I'd just as soon leave the 15th spot open. Then again it might not be a bad idea to take a look at someone like Noah and see up close what he has left.
I would also argue that Noah is far from done. He would be a far better backup center than Gorgui. Noah would be perfect as a second unit center. We need the defensive toughness inside and Gorgui doesn't have any of that.
Usually I'm against hockey rotations but if I had a bench of Noah, Tolliver-Dieng, Deng, Okogie-Butler, and Rose-Jones I'd be very happy.
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Post by levine on Sept 11, 2018 13:43:40 GMT -6
Agreed. I actually hope Thibs is forward thinking enough to use Tolliver at C in some smaller line-ups. But Thibs still really seems to love playing two bigs, no matter the situation, so we'll see...
Gibson and Tolliver really aren't centers. In certain matchups you can use either in a pinch. We don't want KAT and the starters playing 38 minutes a game either.
I'm just saying we have a lot of 3-4's. Who knows with Patton? At this point he doesn't count. Now that we have Deng I'd just as soon leave the 15th spot open. Then again it might not be a bad idea to take a look at someone like Noah and see up close what he has left.
I would also argue that Noah is far from done. He would be a far better backup center than Gorgui. Noah would be perfect as a second unit center. We need the defensive toughness inside and Gorgui doesn't have any of that.
Usually I'm against hockey rotations but if I had a bench of Noah, Tolliver-Dieng, Deng, Okogie-Butler, and Rose-Jones I'd be very happy.
Are there any teams that play traditional centers for 48 minutes (other than us)?
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Post by cory on Sept 11, 2018 17:19:29 GMT -6
Agreed. I actually hope Thibs is forward thinking enough to use Tolliver at C in some smaller line-ups. But Thibs still really seems to love playing two bigs, no matter the situation, so we'll see...
Gibson and Tolliver really aren't centers. In certain matchups you can use either in a pinch. We don't want KAT and the starters playing 38 minutes a game either.
I'm just saying we have a lot of 3-4's. Who knows with Patton? At this point he doesn't count. Now that we have Deng I'd just as soon leave the 15th spot open. Then again it might not be a bad idea to take a look at someone like Noah and see up close what he has left.
I would also argue that Noah is far from done. He would be a far better backup center than Gorgui. Noah would be perfect as a second unit center. We need the defensive toughness inside and Gorgui doesn't have any of that.
Usually I'm against hockey rotations but if I had a bench of Noah, Tolliver-Dieng, Deng, Okogie-Butler, and Rose-Jones I'd be very happy.
Sorry but this is an archaic way to look at basketball. There are 3 positions in the NBA at this point, ball handling guards, wings, and bigs. Saying that Tolliver and Gibson are 4's and shouldn't play center at points ignores how every other team in the NBA plays. More and more teams are going small with 2nd units so that they can get wings on the floor. I know you do not like Thibs but trying to box this roster in to 1980-2008 positional definitions is the exact reason many people do not like Thibs and his system. It worked in that era. That era is gone. Look at every team in the league and you will see "traditional" 4's or big wings playing spot minutes or big minutes at C. GS - Draymond, Jordan Bell Houston - PJ Tucker received backup minutes at the 5 in the playoffs, Ryan Anderson would have been the main big in some lineups as well San Antonio - Aldridge has essentially accepted that he is a modern big and routinely plays as the only big. Utah - Derrick Favors is the backup 5 to Gobert. Thunder - Jerami Grant played backup 5 last year. Pelicans - Anthony Davis is essentially a 5 now with Cousins gone and Mirotic played the backup minutes when he was subbed out. Cavs - Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love saw the majority of minutes at the 5 for them last year. Celtics - Al Horford is a 5 but he is the most switchable big in the league and capable of shooting 3's. He's very close in size to Gibson and Tolliver Bucks - Giannis started to play a point 5 type role at times last year. I could go on but NBA rosters are loaded with traditional 5's who will see more DNP-CD's then they will games played this year. Backup 5's are the least important position in the sport at this point. This roster has 5 "bigs" on the roster by modern positional definitions, that is way too many and more than enough to fill 48 minutes of time at the "5" spot.
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Post by Nick K on Sept 11, 2018 18:28:49 GMT -6
Gibson and Tolliver really aren't centers. In certain matchups you can use either in a pinch. We don't want KAT and the starters playing 38 minutes a game either.
I'm just saying we have a lot of 3-4's. Who knows with Patton? At this point he doesn't count. Now that we have Deng I'd just as soon leave the 15th spot open. Then again it might not be a bad idea to take a look at someone like Noah and see up close what he has left.
I would also argue that Noah is far from done. He would be a far better backup center than Gorgui. Noah would be perfect as a second unit center. We need the defensive toughness inside and Gorgui doesn't have any of that.
Usually I'm against hockey rotations but if I had a bench of Noah, Tolliver-Dieng, Deng, Okogie-Butler, and Rose-Jones I'd be very happy.
Sorry but this is an archaic way to look at basketball. There are 3 positions in the NBA at this point, ball handling guards, wings, and bigs. Saying that Tolliver and Gibson are 4's and shouldn't play center at points ignores how every other team in the NBA plays. More and more teams are going small with 2nd units so that they can get wings on the floor. I know you do not like Thibs but trying to box this roster in to 1980-2008 positional definitions is the exact reason many people do not like Thibs and his system. It worked in that era. That era is gone. Look at every team in the league and you will see "traditional" 4's or big wings playing spot minutes or big minutes at C. GS - Draymond, Jordan Bell Houston - PJ Tucker received backup minutes at the 5 in the playoffs, Ryan Anderson would have been the main big in some lineups as well San Antonio - Aldridge has essentially accepted that he is a modern big and routinely plays as the only big. Utah - Derrick Favors is the backup 5 to Gobert. Thunder - Jerami Grant played backup 5 last year. Pelicans - Anthony Davis is essentially a 5 now with Cousins gone and Mirotic played the backup minutes when he was subbed out. Cavs - Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love saw the majority of minutes at the 5 for them last year. Celtics - Al Horford is a 5 but he is the most switchable big in the league and capable of shooting 3's. He's very close in size to Gibson and Tolliver Bucks - Giannis started to play a point 5 type role at times last year. I could go on but NBA rosters are loaded with traditional 5's who will see more DNP-CD's then they will games played this year. Backup 5's are the least important position in the sport at this point. This roster has 5 "bigs" on the roster by modern positional definitions, that is way too many and more than enough to fill 48 minutes of time at the "5" spot. "Gibson and Tolliver really aren't centers. In certain matchups you can use either in a pinch."...... Looks like you missed that part.
The bottom line is with the make-up of our team we need tough rebounding and more importantly rim protection. Noah gives us that more than anybody else on our team. We need a 2nd unit that can defend more than anything. The 5 I mentioned can do that.
Lamarcus Aldridge is 6'11" 260, Anthony Davis is 6'10" 255, Favors is 6'10 265.... You can hardly compare these guys to Gibson and Tolliver. Pretty soon we'll be having the 6'8 Jimmy Butler playing center.
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