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Trade KAT
Jan 23, 2024 19:42:43 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by wolvesco on Jan 23, 2024 19:42:43 GMT -6
Here’s why:
1) He just scored 62 and is at his peak in terms of trade value.
2) We can’t afford a scorer only with no defense
3) He will never be a leader. He cries after ref calls and chases his own stats over wins.
4) No defense at all.
5) Self absorbed with “changing the game” when he really didn’t
6) NOT AN ALL Star but paid like one
7) He disappears in the playoffs
8) Horrible contract for the production
9) Don’t waste this opportunity with Ant like they did KG
Get picks, get a mature veteran presence, make a more balanced team.
You can’t win with this guy. He’s been in the league for years. It’s not getting better. This team is on the verge of being great but needs to get rid of this piece to make it all work. Nothing against him personally but this isn’t working.
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 23, 2024 21:59:49 GMT -6
I think people know I've been more on the Trade Kat bandwagon than off it. But its not because he's a bad player. Its because he IS the player that he's going to be and that player isnt worth what his salary is going to be commanding for the next 5 years. Honestly, I really like KAT the guy and I wish it would work out here but I just dont think he's going to change. Dane and Jake Fredricks (who you can tell is really a trade KAT guy) were discussing things today and Dane said that maybe this will "wake him up". Jake succinctly put it: losing 3- 20 plus leads to Memphis in the playoffs didnt wake him up, and losing to substandard teams last year didnt wake him up, and he's 28......he is who he is.
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Post by quinn on Jan 23, 2024 22:25:14 GMT -6
I think people know I've been more on the Trade Kat bandwagon than off it. But its not because he's a bad player. Its because he IS the player that he's going to be and that player isnt worth what his salary is going to be commanding for the next 5 years. Honestly, I really like KAT the guy and I wish it would work out here but I just dont think he's going to change. Dane and Jake Fredricks (who you can tell is really a trade KAT guy) were discussing things today and Dane said that maybe this will "wake him up". Jake succinctly put it: losing 3- 20 plus leads to Memphis in the playoffs didnt wake him up, and losing to substandard teams last year didnt wake him up, and he's 28......he is who he is. While I agree with you, I still can’t see a world where we trade him. Bad optics for the new owners and bad optics for Connelly trading a franchise pillar amidst your best season ever. You’re finally competitive and now the owners want to make cost cutting moves right after acquiring the team? Good luck using that in your arguments about why a competitive team deserves a new stadium. The thing is, we wouldn’t be trading KAT to save money at this point, you’d be trading him for a better fitting piece, and my argument was always trading him to ease the financial burden. But now, given we’re not trading him at the deadline, the financial incentive is completely irrelevant. So what’s the point of trading him if you’re not getting monetary savings? Odds are you’re not getting a better player for KAT given you have no assets to attach to him to get a better player. Might as well keep him and see what having all this talent can bring you. |
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 23, 2024 22:36:27 GMT -6
I think people know I've been more on the Trade Kat bandwagon than off it. But its not because he's a bad player. Its because he IS the player that he's going to be and that player isnt worth what his salary is going to be commanding for the next 5 years. Honestly, I really like KAT the guy and I wish it would work out here but I just dont think he's going to change. Dane and Jake Fredricks (who you can tell is really a trade KAT guy) were discussing things today and Dane said that maybe this will "wake him up". Jake succinctly put it: losing 3- 20 plus leads to Memphis in the playoffs didnt wake him up, and losing to substandard teams last year didnt wake him up, and he's 28......he is who he is. While I agree with you, I still can’t see a world where we trade him. Bad optics for the new owners and bad optics for Connelly trading a franchise pillar amidst your best season ever. You’re finally competitive and now the owners want to make cost cutting moves right after acquiring the team? Good luck using that in your arguments about why a competitive team deserves a new stadium. The thing is, we wouldn’t be trading KAT to save money at this point, you’d be trading him for a better fitting piece, and my argument was always trading him to ease the financial burden. But now, given we’re not trading him at the deadline, the financial incentive is completely irrelevant. So what’s the point of trading him if you’re not getting monetary savings? Odds are you’re not getting a better player for KAT given you have no assets to attach to him to get a better player. Might as well keep him and see what having all this talent can bring you. What your really getting is the ability to add MULTIPLE quality players in place of Kats salary. You cant keep guys like Slo Mo AND keep Kat. If we trust Connelly to add quality guys at the margins....he's losing that ability if there is no money because so much of it is tied up in a few guys. I actually forgot my biggest reason why I'm behind an eventual KAT trade: he wont do what the team wants him to do. Finch said it again last night: we want him to shoot more 3's. But he wont. Its like he's getting paid 50 million because of all the things that he can do...but he wont do all of them. He feels its beneath him to shoot corner 3's. But its what the team wants him to do and it makes SO MUCH SENSE. Him spending more time in the corner and taking 3' opens up the floor more for Ant. (Also would cut down on his offensive fouls). |
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Trade KAT
Jan 24, 2024 6:43:36 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by jojo on Jan 24, 2024 6:43:36 GMT -6
I think they ride with KAT till at least the deadline next year. It’s going to be hard to get value till he has at least one year off his extension. By then there’ll be another few max extensions and maybe his contract won’t look so onerous. By now we know Connelly will be patient before he pulls the trigger.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 24, 2024 8:35:13 GMT -6
As much as I see the writing on the wall with KAT in the coming years, there's no way he's being dealt this year.
I do think there might be a fairly straightforward process with him though this offseason. The Wolves either succeed by making the western conference finals (or finals) which should be a justification that this thing with KAT/Rudy has merit, or, the Wolves lose in an upset which likely means KAT didn't live up to his salary in the playoffs.
The first half of the season set a baseline for success so if we drop to say the 3 or 4 seed or lose early in the playoffs, it will technically be an upset from where we stand now. KAT is the logical pivot option at that point.
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Post by quinn on Jan 24, 2024 9:01:50 GMT -6
While I agree with you, I still can’t see a world where we trade him. Bad optics for the new owners and bad optics for Connelly trading a franchise pillar amidst your best season ever. You’re finally competitive and now the owners want to make cost cutting moves right after acquiring the team? Good luck using that in your arguments about why a competitive team deserves a new stadium. The thing is, we wouldn’t be trading KAT to save money at this point, you’d be trading him for a better fitting piece, and my argument was always trading him to ease the financial burden. But now, given we’re not trading him at the deadline, the financial incentive is completely irrelevant. So what’s the point of trading him if you’re not getting monetary savings? Odds are you’re not getting a better player for KAT given you have no assets to attach to him to get a better player. Might as well keep him and see what having all this talent can bring you. What your really getting is the ability to add MULTIPLE quality players in place of Kats salary. You cant keep guys like Slo Mo AND keep Kat. If we trust Connelly to add quality guys at the margins....he's losing that ability if there is no money because so much of it is tied up in a few guys. I actually forgot my biggest reason why I'm behind an eventual KAT trade: he wont do what the team wants him to do. Finch said it again last night: we want him to shoot more 3's. But he wont. Its like he's getting paid 50 million because of all the things that he can do...but he wont do all of them. He feels its beneath him to shoot corner 3's. But its what the team wants him to do and it makes SO MUCH SENSE. Him spending more time in the corner and taking 3' opens up the floor more for Ant. (Also would cut down on his offensive fouls). To me, the biggest argument was always the financials rather than the fit. I get what you're saying, but the concern was always the Second Apron penalties. Just swapping KAT for different pieces is fine, if there's a team that can send out $50+ million in better fitting pieces, fantastic. However, two things must be true: 1) They have to have those pieces to send out and 2) They have to want KAT. I think the combination of both of those things being true is probably unlikely. Having KAT with what's already a crowded rotation is fine to me if there's no difference in the financials. There just needs to be as much pressure as there ever has been from Finch, players, and ownership to get KAT to just do what they need him to do. Take it public if that's what needs to happen, because we know that he reads EVERYTHING, even down to the Canis comment section. Put some real pressure on him to be a team player and hit him where it hurts him. |
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Post by kingsxman on Jan 24, 2024 11:51:53 GMT -6
As much as I see the writing on the wall with KAT in the coming years, there's no way he's being dealt this year. I do think there might be a fairly straightforward process with him though this offseason. The Wolves either succeed by making the western conference finals (or finals) which should be a justification that this thing with KAT/Rudy has merit, or, the Wolves lose in an upset which likely means KAT didn't live up to his salary in the playoffs. The first half of the season set a baseline for success so if we drop to say the 3 or 4 seed or lose early in the playoffs, it will technically be an upset from where we stand now. KAT is the logical pivot option at that point. Agreed. Nor do I necessarily think it SHOULD be this year...even though it'll be MUCH harder to trade him next year when his salary jumps. I think he's earned the right to ride this thing through this year. But I will NOT be surprised to see an early playoff exit that highlights bad KAT games and all around immature play from our team. (I obviously hope that this is NOT the case). I know this has been said before, but how long can we keep KAT before his salary hits the books for the 2024/25 season? I beileve we have until the trade deadline NEXT year to move him. is that correct? |
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 24, 2024 12:34:27 GMT -6
I know this has been said before, but how long can we keep KAT before his salary hits the books for the 2024/25 season? I beileve we have until the trade deadline NEXT year to move him. is that correct? I was under the impression that the 2nd apron penalties and luxury tax stuff is all being moved to before the season. I could be wrong on that, but I remember it being discussed by the guys on the Dunc'd on podcast. Not sure of the timing though. Might not be something implemented right away? The goal as they explained it would be that teams have to get their payrolls up right away. Bad teams can't just not sign guys or make moves to then be a dumping ground for salary later in the year (getting the benefit of not having to pay as much to players until the deadline). The league wants to even out the salaries on both ends which is why I think they bumped up the salary floor too. It's unfortunate for the Wolves. Since we don't have assets (trading a 31 first to get off salary would be dumb), we may just have to give a guy like Naz away if we want to avoid the 2nd apron if teams don't want KAT's big salary. |
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Post by quinn on Jan 24, 2024 12:53:46 GMT -6
I know this has been said before, but how long can we keep KAT before his salary hits the books for the 2024/25 season? I beileve we have until the trade deadline NEXT year to move him. is that correct? I was under the impression that the 2nd apron penalties and luxury tax stuff is all being moved to before the season. I could be wrong on that, but I remember it being discussed by the guys on the Dunc'd on podcast. Not sure of the timing though. Might not be something implemented right away? The goal as they explained it would be that teams have to get their payrolls up right away. Bad teams can't just not sign guys or make moves to then be a dumping ground for salary later in the year (getting the benefit of not having to pay as much to players until the deadline). The league wants to even out the salaries on both ends which is why I think they bumped up the salary floor too. It's unfortunate for the Wolves. Since we don't have assets (trading a 31 first to get off salary would be dumb), we may just have to give a guy like Naz away if we want to avoid the 2nd apron if teams don't want KAT's big salary. I think what it is is teams must be compliant to the salary floor at the start of the season and then the penalties of the luxury tax, first apron, and second apron all are accounted for at the end of the year. If someone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong. It makes me think that Connelly is going to wait until next deadline to make a move to get out of the second apron. He's shown that he's going to be patient and wait for the last possible second to have to make a move, which makes sense if you're not trying to trade KAT at his current number. |
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 24, 2024 12:59:07 GMT -6
I think what it is is teams must be compliant to the salary floor at the start of the season and then the penalties of the luxury tax, first apron, and second apron all are accounted for at the end of the year. If someone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong. It makes me think that Connelly is going to wait until next deadline to make a move to get out of the second apron. He's shown that he's going to be patient and wait for the last possible second to have to make a move, which makes sense if you're not trying to trade KAT at his current number. That's probably right. The problem with trying to get out of it at the deadline is the matching salary. The Wolves would have to be close enough to the apron that dealing KAT for lesser salary fits the salary matching requirements AND still gets them under the apron. That could really limit trade options during the season as compared to doing the deal before the season. For instance, a team under the cap could trade for KAT without having to match all the salary. I think a team with say $20M in space would only have to send back $20M less than a team over the cap would have to send in trade though the salary matching rules still apply. With teams now spending up to the floor, there won't be much in season cap room. |
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Post by tmill720 on Jan 24, 2024 14:32:09 GMT -6
I was under the impression that the 2nd apron penalties and luxury tax stuff is all being moved to before the season. I could be wrong on that, but I remember it being discussed by the guys on the Dunc'd on podcast. Not sure of the timing though. Might not be something implemented right away? The goal as they explained it would be that teams have to get their payrolls up right away. Bad teams can't just not sign guys or make moves to then be a dumping ground for salary later in the year (getting the benefit of not having to pay as much to players until the deadline). The league wants to even out the salaries on both ends which is why I think they bumped up the salary floor too. It's unfortunate for the Wolves. Since we don't have assets (trading a 31 first to get off salary would be dumb), we may just have to give a guy like Naz away if we want to avoid the 2nd apron if teams don't want KAT's big salary. I think what it is is teams must be compliant to the salary floor at the start of the season and then the penalties of the luxury tax, first apron, and second apron all are accounted for at the end of the year. If someone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong. It makes me think that Connelly is going to wait until next deadline to make a move to get out of the second apron. He's shown that he's going to be patient and wait for the last possible second to have to make a move, which makes sense if you're not trying to trade KAT at his current number. Idk, I think he's also shown he values continuity and would realize that an in-season KAT trade would only give us 2 months of playing together before the playoffs. I think he'll want continuity and not having something linger around half the season. I'd think that he either plays the entire 2024-25 season with us or he's gone before the season starts. |
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jan 24, 2024 15:55:37 GMT -6
I think what it is is teams must be compliant to the salary floor at the start of the season and then the penalties of the luxury tax, first apron, and second apron all are accounted for at the end of the year. If someone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong. It makes me think that Connelly is going to wait until next deadline to make a move to get out of the second apron. He's shown that he's going to be patient and wait for the last possible second to have to make a move, which makes sense if you're not trying to trade KAT at his current number. Idk, I think he's also shown he values continuity and would realize that an in-season KAT trade would only give us 2 months of playing together before the playoffs. I think he'll want continuity and not having something linger around half the season. I'd think that he either plays the entire 2024-25 season with us or he's gone before the season starts. I think whoever they might get in is not going to be starting and Naz will be in the starting lineup. |
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Trade KAT
Jan 24, 2024 19:02:14 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by wolvesco on Jan 24, 2024 19:02:14 GMT -6
If they can play defense and follow what the coaches and system require it may be an improvement
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Post by tmill720 on Jan 25, 2024 8:45:16 GMT -6
Idk, I think he's also shown he values continuity and would realize that an in-season KAT trade would only give us 2 months of playing together before the playoffs. I think he'll want continuity and not having something linger around half the season. I'd think that he either plays the entire 2024-25 season with us or he's gone before the season starts. I think whoever they might get in is not going to be starting and Naz will be in the starting lineup. Trading KAT and not getting a starter back would be horrible business IMO. |
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Post by quinn on Jan 25, 2024 9:34:21 GMT -6
I think what it is is teams must be compliant to the salary floor at the start of the season and then the penalties of the luxury tax, first apron, and second apron all are accounted for at the end of the year. If someone knows better, correct me if I'm wrong. It makes me think that Connelly is going to wait until next deadline to make a move to get out of the second apron. He's shown that he's going to be patient and wait for the last possible second to have to make a move, which makes sense if you're not trying to trade KAT at his current number. Idk, I think he's also shown he values continuity and would realize that an in-season KAT trade would only give us 2 months of playing together before the playoffs. I think he'll want continuity and not having something linger around half the season. I'd think that he either plays the entire 2024-25 season with us or he's gone before the season starts. And I think you're probably right that he values continuity A LOT. But that was also why I was such a proponent of trading him this past offseason. You could get apron-compliant in advance, trade KAT at $36 mil, AND build a core that is financially viable for the future. You could actually start to chart your path forward and build some continuity with the team you'll financially be able to field. |
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Trade KAT
Jan 25, 2024 12:19:29 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by tmirvin on Jan 25, 2024 12:19:29 GMT -6
I've seen quite a few packages for Murray - most are of the "what we think" vs "what we've heard" variety - but most are terrible for ATL. Kat for Murray + whatever else would most likely beat other offers. Not sure what ATL's vision is though. Get better now, shed salary, accumulate assets?
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Post by Scorched on Jan 25, 2024 13:19:30 GMT -6
I've seen quite a few packages for Murray - most are of the "what we think" vs "what we've heard" variety - but most are terrible for ATL. Kat for Murray + whatever else would most likely beat other offers. Not sure what ATL's vision is though. Get better now, shed salary, accumulate assets? Considering they are apparently unwilling to trade Trae, I'm assuming they are looking for win now assets, not draft capital. |
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Post by tmill720 on Jan 25, 2024 14:43:29 GMT -6
I've seen quite a few packages for Murray - most are of the "what we think" vs "what we've heard" variety - but most are terrible for ATL. Kat for Murray + whatever else would most likely beat other offers. Not sure what ATL's vision is though. Get better now, shed salary, accumulate assets? Seems like Dejounte is gone before the deadline, so I don't think a KAT trade lines up. There's just no way Connelly would deal KAT in the middle of this season. Even if he was available, he's not as big of a slam dunk as I thought last year. He's not a true PG but would probably have to play that position next to Ant/Jaden as our rebounding would be atrocious with Jaden as our 4 but then what do we do with Conley? Or is Jaden coming off the bench now? |
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Post by Scorched on Jan 25, 2024 16:28:10 GMT -6
I've seen quite a few packages for Murray - most are of the "what we think" vs "what we've heard" variety - but most are terrible for ATL. Kat for Murray + whatever else would most likely beat other offers. Not sure what ATL's vision is though. Get better now, shed salary, accumulate assets? Seems like Dejounte is gone before the deadline, so I don't think a KAT trade lines up. There's just no way Connelly would deal KAT in the middle of this season. Even if he was available, he's not as big of a slam dunk as I thought last year. He's not a true PG but would probably have to play that position next to Ant/Jaden as our rebounding would be atrocious with Jaden as our 4 but then what do we do with Conley? Or is Jaden coming off the bench now? Seems like some of the shine has come off of Dejounte this year. I'm still interested though, but like you said I'm just not sure on the fit. We really need someone to run our team of low BBIQ players. |
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Post by Nick K on Jan 25, 2024 16:42:50 GMT -6
I think whoever they might get in is not going to be starting and Naz will be in the starting lineup. Trading KAT and not getting a starter back would be horrible business IMO. Trading Kat is just a bad idea period. What will we do if Ant gets hurt? Obviously it depends on who we get for Kat. I think there is a snowball's chance in hell we get fair value. Connelly won't do it. |
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Trade KAT
Jan 26, 2024 6:48:43 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by XRaySpecs on Jan 26, 2024 6:48:43 GMT -6
I'm worried that if KAT has another playoff failure on his resume that his contract is going to make him more like Zach Lavine. Lavine has openly been on the block for awhile now and there's reportedly no interest. Like Lavine, KAT is a good player, but paid like a great player. He has the same makeup as Lavine, a very good offensive player with major defensive concerns and the earned stigma of not being a winning player. Anyone trading for him better have amazing defensive personnel all around him.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jan 26, 2024 10:00:01 GMT -6
I think whoever they might get in is not going to be starting and Naz will be in the starting lineup. Trading KAT and not getting a starter back would be horrible business IMO. Not necessarily. Reid moves to the starting spot and he has no problem shooting the 3 from the corners or the top of the key therefore opening up driving lanes and or spreading the defense. Garza or Miller should be ready to step in on the second unit. May not be as productive as Reid but they need some experience. We really need a younger PG that can learn under Conley but also take over and produce. |
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Post by tmill720 on Jan 26, 2024 10:16:44 GMT -6
Trading KAT and not getting a starter back would be horrible business IMO. Not necessarily. Reid moves to the starting spot and he has no problem shooting the 3 from the corners or the top of the key therefore opening up driving lanes and or spreading the defense. Garza or Miller should be ready to step in on the second unit. May not be as productive as Reid but they need some experience. We really need a younger PG that can learn under Conley but also take over and produce. If we're trading KAT, we absolutely should not be put in a position where Garza or Miller sniffs the court. We're either getting a veteran starter back plus younger intriguing depth (like a Bojan Bogdanovic and Jaden Ivey deal), or a like-for-like deal to shuffle the deck with similar fringe stars (Dejounte, Lavine, Randle, Jerami Grant, Sabonis - type players). We have a really good team right now. KAT is an important part of this team - no way we win last night without him. Having him disappear for picks just seems like punting on Rudy/Conley. So why would we not get something back that is starter-quality in a KAT deal? If we can't get starter quality back? Then I'm keeping him because that's just trading him for trading him's sake at that point. |
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jan 26, 2024 10:35:04 GMT -6
Not necessarily. Reid moves to the starting spot and he has no problem shooting the 3 from the corners or the top of the key therefore opening up driving lanes and or spreading the defense. Garza or Miller should be ready to step in on the second unit. May not be as productive as Reid but they need some experience. We really need a younger PG that can learn under Conley but also take over and produce. If we're trading KAT, we absolutely should not be put in a position where Garza or Miller sniffs the court. We're either getting a veteran starter back plus younger intriguing depth (like a Bojan Bogdanovic and Jaden Ivey deal), or a like-for-like deal to shuffle the deck with similar fringe stars (Dejounte, Lavine, Randle, Jerami Grant, Sabonis - type players). We have a really good team right now. KAT is an important part of this team - no way we win last night without him. Having him disappear for picks just seems like punting on Rudy/Conley. So why would we not get something back that is starter-quality in a KAT deal? If we can't get starter quality back? Then I'm keeping him because that's just trading him for trading him's sake at that point. I get what you are saying but to me it's apparent we really need to move either KAT or ANT. For whatever reason they acquiesce to each other instead of having an alpha they have 2 beta's and that's a bad thing. If Conley was an Alpha or Gobert was the alpha it would work better but it appears the pecking order is KAT/ANT as shared #1. It's time to trade one of them and Reid stepping up to the starting spot keeps the time frame current. But if Monte Morris is available or gettable as Levine is indicating we should be doing what is necessary to get him to replace Conley. |
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