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Post by wolvesco on May 26, 2024 21:51:01 GMT -6
Trade KAT.
He is soft and just never steps up in the postseason. Naz Reid plays better anyway. He’s 7-foot and still shoot layups. He doesn’t play D. And his transition sticks because he spends more time complaining about not getting a foul call than playing D.
He can rebound but he’s 7-feet so I hope so. When the game was on the line in game 2 the coaches sat him. When the Wolves must win he had 0 in the first, just 5 in the second. He went 0-8 at the three point line.
Trade for an aging Lebron. Trade for a future first. Trade for a washing machine. Somehow he was an all star so trade him now while he has an ounce of value.
When your top highest paid guy fails to show up in the playoffs he will never win you a title.
We need a young PG and another PF.
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Post by kingsxman on May 26, 2024 22:23:41 GMT -6
So half of this take is so bad I almost dont want to comment. But, the fact that "something" should probably change is real, so we should deal with it.
There is going to be a faction of people that think trading KAT is the answer and there will be a faction that says "run it back". Running it back may make some sense, except that it really does nothing to address the cap hell that we are in. If we had won I'd be more tempted to say "run it back". But given how poorly this series has gone...and the consistency of the failures of certain players...I think it makes sense to make changes.
KAT and Ant both were sub par for most of this series. Having 1 of them play average potentially would have given us wins in either of the first 2 games. We're not trading the guy who will potentially be the face of the league who is only 22. The other had a couple of very good series before the pee ran down his leg in this series. Is that enough to move him? I lean yes but it depends on what you can get. The coaching staff needs to seriously look in the mirror however also as they also left puddles at thier feet. I still love Finch but lets not pretend that they didnt make costly mistakes.
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Post by wolvesco on May 26, 2024 22:44:39 GMT -6
I’m not sure why half the take is bad.
I guarantee it’s not as bad as the highest paid player on the team averaging 15 PPG and who is 3 for 22 even though he claims to be one of the top three point guys of all time or whatever he said.
I just don’t see how anyone could justify paying him what he will make next year for this type of production.
I don’t want to lose Ant like KG. We lost KG because they rarely put a team around him.
Maybe I’m just frustrated because of how bad this series has been. But the team is out of balance. Dallas is throwing 2-3 guys on Ant and KAT has disappeared.
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Post by kingsxman on May 26, 2024 23:14:27 GMT -6
Here's my issue: He is soft and just never steps up in the postseason: He pretty much helped us win the first 2 series and was really good. So you cant say he never steps up when we lose the Denver series for sure without what he gave us game 7.
He’s 7-foot and still shoot layups. This just is not true. He dunks with the best of them.
He doesn’t play D: He played the best D on the MVP of the league and won us that series.
And his transition sticks because he spends more time complaining about not getting a foul call than playing D. :He hasnt really done that all playoffs. He's been very good about not complaining for the most part. And....he desnt get the calls he deserves.
All that said...I agree with you in that its time to move him. But...you have to give him credit for what he's done and what he has improved on. Its just that I dont think he's going to improve enought to be worth what we're paying him and what he'll eventually cost us. (NAW and NAZ).
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Post by wolvesco on May 27, 2024 6:45:21 GMT -6
Fair enough. And you’re right he played well against Denver. My comments are more about his overall career in the postseason.
I don’t know who we could get for KAT. But we need to compliment the pieces on this team and build around Ant. I think we need another PF and PG.
I was only half kidding about Lebron. The odds are low but I think he’d be a good fit and would help Ant. I doubt he leaves LA. But he wants to go to a contender and the Wolves are not far off.
I think Phoenix would make a deal. I really don’t know what KAT is worth but I think it has to happen this summer.
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Post by kingsxman on May 27, 2024 9:01:24 GMT -6
Fair enough. And you’re right he played well against Denver. My comments are more about his overall career in the postseason. I don’t know who we could get for KAT. But we need to compliment the pieces on this team and build around Ant. I think we need another PF and PG. I was only half kidding about Lebron. The odds are low but I think he’d be a good fit and would help Ant. I doubt he leaves LA. But he wants to go to a contender and the Wolves are not far off. I think Phoenix would make a deal. I really don’t know what KAT is worth but I think it has to happen this summer. I want nothing to do with LeBron. I think we have to realize that trading KAT will probably make us a little worse right away. What we need to get for KAT is a "now" piece and a "future" piece. The value of trading KAT will be in 3 years when that future piece starts to take shape. If its the right move it extends the window beyond just Rudys time. I just hope Connelly is here to do it. I am truly terrified that he is going to leave this offseason.
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Post by wolvesco on May 27, 2024 12:02:42 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave?
He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there.
Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option.
Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams.
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Post by jr on May 27, 2024 12:08:57 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave? He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there. Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option. Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams. I thought LeBron was set on playing with his kid wherever his kid ends up...
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Post by cory on May 27, 2024 14:20:02 GMT -6
As a long time person leading the charge of not believing that KAT is someone to build a championship team around, this was a very interesting season. We'll see how the next couple of games go, maybe we can drag this out to 6 but the writing is on the wall historically. We won't make it to game 5 if KAT plays like he has been playing though.
As far as the season goes, the do not trade KAT contingent won. He was fitting in as the #2 to Ant and 2nd primary scorer and fully bought into the team. As far as the playoff goes, the flaws of KAT in the highest leverage games have been exposed. His primary value as a player in the postseason was from his ability to play defense on Durant relatively well against the Suns and he was our best defensive option 1 on 1 versus Jokic. That's impressive. But he hasn't provided very much value offensively. And it's really tough to see how he ever drives value offensively against the best teams in the NBA in the playoffs. He's not a shot creator, and that's what wins games in the playoffs. He needs to rely on others to set him up for 3's and he hasn't even hit those for whatever reason. He's essentially a spot up shooter and those are not $50M dollar players. You can't trust him to drive or post up right now.
The other big argument for trading KAT was you had 80-90% of him in Naz being paid at 25% of his pay. In the playoffs it appears Naz is roughly 99-110% of KAT depending on the night.
The same question has to be asked over and over again, if we are going to position an Ant lead franchise to win a title, how do we construct a team around him? It's not that KAT isn't valuable, but at $50M a year without another shot creator on the roster, it's very tough to see how you can construct a team that's going to win a title. You can find defensive bigs who can guard. But spending $50M a year on a guy who can't create his own shot and who hamstrings your options on finding another real creator for the roster seems like a tough choice to land on and you would be betting against a lengthy body of evidence.
There are 3 teams that have gone on runs to conference finals that I'm reminded of right now. The first two are the Blazers and the Hawks. Both teams did it on the backs of dynamic scoring guards and then they doubled down on the rosters they had built with the belief things would continue to improve. They were wrong and are both either in a rebuild or facing a rebuild.
The other is Dallas. They made it with Luka but they kept flexibility and struck when there was an opportunity to strike to add a secondary creator and defensive infrastructure that Luka and Kyrie needed to win.
The Wolves road for making a decision is short. Rudy's contract is approaching an end in 2 seasons (assuming he picks up his player option). KAT's extension kicks in, Ant's, and Jaden's. You could run it back next year knowing you didn't pay the tax this year with Conley's incentives not hitting with a finals run but is that the right move? This roster lacks 2 things that Ant will need to continue his development, shooting, and someone else who can put the ball on the floor and get a bucket. A depressed asset like Kyrie is not out there, but that may not be what we need. The nucleus overall is strong. If Naz plays 35 minutes a night, I think he's a 20 ppg player, he's just that skilled.
I'm glad they didn't trade KAT. It was the right move. But I don't think it will continue to be the right move. We have seen evidence on both sides but the fact that KAT's primary value in the playoffs has been due to his defense is enough for me to say I would rather repurpose that $50M and sell the asset now rather than continue to run it back with the same roster with the belief it's just going to workout.
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Post by levine on May 27, 2024 15:09:08 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave? He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there. Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option. Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams. I think a lot depends on who wins ownership. If it Lore-Rod I’m pretty sure TC stays. If it’s Glen, I think it may be more up in the air. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that TC has an opt out the summer that the ownership transfer was scheduled to happen.
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Post by levine on May 27, 2024 15:09:46 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave? He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there. Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option. Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams. I thought LeBron was set on playing with his kid wherever his kid ends up... He’s backed way off of that. I think he realizes it does neither him or his kid any favors.
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Post by tmirvin on May 27, 2024 18:27:16 GMT -6
I was going to wait until the season was over to mention this because I didn't want to jinx anything. But I think it's safe now.
Would anyone trade Kat for Durant? They make about the same money but Kat has 4 years left and Durant has two. Durant seems to have soured on their big 3 and kat & booker are buddies. Each team could probably use a retooling. I'm guessing the wolves might have to add either this year's 1st or their early 2nd. Either way, I think it's pretty interesting to think about. Durant would give the wolves a second playmaker and shot maker to relieve ant.
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Post by cory on May 27, 2024 20:12:14 GMT -6
I was going to wait until the season was over to mention this because I didn't want to jinx anything. But I think it's safe now. Would anyone trade Kat for Durant? They make about the same money but Kat has 4 years left and Durant has two. Durant seems to have soured on their big 3 and kat & booker are buddies. Each team could probably use a retooling. I'm guessing the wolves might have to add either this year's 1st or their early 2nd. Either way, I think it's pretty interesting to think about. Durant would give the wolves a second playmaker and shot maker to relieve ant. Yes. I’m not sure I add anything beyond the Washington 2nd though.
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Post by wolvesco on May 27, 2024 20:56:42 GMT -6
I would happily trade KAT for Durant even if you have to add a 1st.
You only have a 1-2 year window with the whole Gobert trade. And I think a vet that knows how to win a title is what this team is missing.
My only concern is you lose a few guys this offseason like SloMo and Morris. And they need PG help. I’m not sure how they make the math work for some of those types of roles.
KAT (or Durant), Ant, Gobert, McDaniels and Reid eat up most of the salary cap.
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Post by kingsxman on May 28, 2024 6:35:45 GMT -6
As a long time person leading the charge of not believing that KAT is someone to build a championship team around, this was a very interesting season. We'll see how the next couple of games go, maybe we can drag this out to 6 but the writing is on the wall historically. We won't make it to game 5 if KAT plays like he has been playing though. As far as the season goes, the do not trade KAT contingent won. He was fitting in as the #2 to Ant and 2nd primary scorer and fully bought into the team. As far as the playoff goes, the flaws of KAT in the highest leverage games have been exposed. His primary value as a player in the postseason was from his ability to play defense on Durant relatively well against the Suns and he was our best defensive option 1 on 1 versus Jokic. That's impressive. But he hasn't provided very much value offensively. And it's really tough to see how he ever drives value offensively against the best teams in the NBA in the playoffs. He's not a shot creator, and that's what wins games in the playoffs. He needs to rely on others to set him up for 3's and he hasn't even hit those for whatever reason. He's essentially a spot up shooter and those are not $50M dollar players. You can't trust him to drive or post up right now. The other big argument for trading KAT was you had 80-90% of him in Naz being paid at 25% of his pay. In the playoffs it appears Naz is roughly 99-110% of KAT depending on the night. The same question has to be asked over and over again, if we are going to position an Ant lead franchise to win a title, how do we construct a team around him? It's not that KAT isn't valuable, but at $50M a year without another shot creator on the roster, it's very tough to see how you can construct a team that's going to win a title. You can find defensive bigs who can guard. But spending $50M a year on a guy who can't create his own shot and who hamstrings your options on finding another real creator for the roster seems like a tough choice to land on and you would be betting against a lengthy body of evidence. There are 3 teams that have gone on runs to conference finals that I'm reminded of right now. The first two are the Blazers and the Hawks. Both teams did it on the backs of dynamic scoring guards and then they doubled down on the rosters they had built with the belief things would continue to improve. They were wrong and are both either in a rebuild or facing a rebuild. The other is Dallas. They made it with Luka but they kept flexibility and struck when there was an opportunity to strike to add a secondary creator and defensive infrastructure that Luka and Kyrie needed to win. The Wolves road for making a decision is short. Rudy's contract is approaching an end in 2 seasons (assuming he picks up his player option). KAT's extension kicks in, Ant's, and Jaden's. You could run it back next year knowing you didn't pay the tax this year with Conley's incentives not hitting with a finals run but is that the right move? This roster lacks 2 things that Ant will need to continue his development, shooting, and someone else who can put the ball on the floor and get a bucket. A depressed asset like Kyrie is not out there, but that may not be what we need. The nucleus overall is strong. If Naz plays 35 minutes a night, I think he's a 20 ppg player, he's just that skilled. I'm glad they didn't trade KAT. It was the right move. But I don't think it will continue to be the right move. We have seen evidence on both sides but the fact that KAT's primary value in the playoffs has been due to his defense is enough for me to say I would rather repurpose that $50M and sell the asset now rather than continue to run it back with the same roster with the belief it's just going to workout. I thought this was an interesting post by Dane:
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Post by kingsxman on May 28, 2024 7:07:09 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave? He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there. Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option. Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams. I think a lot depends on who wins ownership. If it Lore-Rod I’m pretty sure TC stays. If it’s Glen, I think it may be more up in the air. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that TC has an opt out the summer that the ownership transfer was scheduled to happen. The problem is that the ownership situation wont be resolved by the time TC has to make a decision. I think that TC will use this as an opportunity to get more money. My biggest concern is that since it will be Glen making the call, Glen will not want to pay him more money and will let him leave. That.....would be the biggest mistake that Glen could make and potentially would make me get rid of my season tickets. I'm actually very worried about that situation happening because it would be the most Timberwolves thing that could happen. That said...I think that even if TC wants more money Glen has seen what a difference having a competant front office person can do for the organization and would pay him what it takes to stay.
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Post by kingsxman on May 28, 2024 7:12:30 GMT -6
I was going to wait until the season was over to mention this because I didn't want to jinx anything. But I think it's safe now. Would anyone trade Kat for Durant? They make about the same money but Kat has 4 years left and Durant has two. Durant seems to have soured on their big 3 and kat & booker are buddies. Each team could probably use a retooling. I'm guessing the wolves might have to add either this year's 1st or their early 2nd. Either way, I think it's pretty interesting to think about. Durant would give the wolves a second playmaker and shot maker to relieve ant. Absolutely not. The biggest mistake we could make right now is to double down on winning "right now" and losing long term assets for short term gain. Durant gets hurt. Durant gets coaches fired. Durant creates a circus. No. Honestly, I wish it would work with KAT. I really like the dude and he's been loyal. But tough decisions have to be made. Now, they could do one year of dipping into the 2nd apron and run it back as is. The issue I have is that NAW's deal is done at the end of next year. I dont know enough about the cap to know if we can resign him THIS offseason to extend his contract or not. But if not...and we cant resign him because of 2nd apron...we just lose that money unless we trade him during the offseason this year or during the season next year. NAZ would be a casualty the following year. I personally think having NAZ and NAW and what you'd get for KAT is better than just having KAT.
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Post by levine on May 28, 2024 7:33:59 GMT -6
NAW can not be extended.
Which is too bad because his value has bottomed out since the end of the Phoenix series.
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Post by kingsxman on May 28, 2024 8:03:32 GMT -6
NAW can not be extended. Which is too bad because his value has bottomed out since the end of the Phoenix series. Why not? Just curious. I thought that you always could do a new deal for someone when they were in the last year of their contract. Thats what we did for Conley.
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Post by blountdavis on May 28, 2024 8:24:08 GMT -6
Whey would Connelly leave? He’s got a sweet job, a potential all pro player in Ant, and I truly think he would make them a championship team this offseason. I think with 1-2 moves he’s there. Agreed on Lebron. But Lebron is chasing a title so I could see him like Minnesota as an option. Denver, Minnesota, Phoenix, Lakers and even the Warriors are in a must win mode. And they have to do something because next year the Grizzlies, Mavs, and Oklahoma City will be just as good. Some big moves will happen by a few of these teams. I think a lot depends on who wins ownership. If it Lore-Rod I’m pretty sure TC stays. If it’s Glen, I think it may be more up in the air. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that TC has an opt out the summer that the ownership transfer was scheduled to happen.
I'm not sure. Glen is a pretty great guy to work under. Low pressure and doesn't make rash decisions (who else would have kept McHale around that long) I think Glen will let Tim Connelly make basketball decisions.
And I believe Glen will write the big tax checks if the team is a contender. We don't really know if the Arod/Lore group will stomach writing the luxury tax checks. Connelly worked for a cheap owner in Denver. I'm not sure he wants to do that again.
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Post by levine on May 28, 2024 8:36:16 GMT -6
NAW can not be extended. Which is too bad because his value has bottomed out since the end of the Phoenix series. Why not? Just curious. I thought that you always could do a new deal for someone when they were in the last year of their contract. Thats what we did for Conley. Because its a 2 year contract. Contracts for fewer than three seasons may not be extended.www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58
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Post by levine on May 28, 2024 8:38:58 GMT -6
I think a lot depends on who wins ownership. If it Lore-Rod I’m pretty sure TC stays. If it’s Glen, I think it may be more up in the air. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that TC has an opt out the summer that the ownership transfer was scheduled to happen.
I'm not sure. Glen is a pretty great guy to work under. Low pressure and doesn't make rash decisions (who else would have kept McHale around that long) I think Glen will let Tim Connelly make basketball decisions.
And I believe Glen will write the big tax checks if the team is a contender. We don't really know if the Arod/Lore group will stomach writing the luxury tax checks. Connelly worked for a cheap owner in Denver. I'm not sure he wants to do that again.
Maybe? Glen also has a history of meddling. And has scared off high profile candidates before. I hope he'll pay the tax, but we don't know that either. He's paid out a total of 25M in luxury tax during his time as the owner. And he's collected multiples and multiples of that by usually being under.
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Post by XRaySpecs on May 28, 2024 14:25:17 GMT -6
KAT for KD would be really interesting. I don't think it works financially though as a 2 team deal because both teams would be over the 2nd apron so neither can take back more salary than they send out. Since KAT makes a couple million less than KD, the Wolves can't trade for KD straight up. I would think we could involve a 3rd team though where we send out Moore for nothing as that would add $2.5M to our outgoing salary that we're taking back less overall money.
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Post by tmirvin on May 28, 2024 14:30:25 GMT -6
I was going to wait until the season was over to mention this because I didn't want to jinx anything. But I think it's safe now. Would anyone trade Kat for Durant? They make about the same money but Kat has 4 years left and Durant has two. Durant seems to have soured on their big 3 and kat & booker are buddies. Each team could probably use a retooling. I'm guessing the wolves might have to add either this year's 1st or their early 2nd. Either way, I think it's pretty interesting to think about. Durant would give the wolves a second playmaker and shot maker to relieve ant. Absolutely not. The biggest mistake we could make right now is to double down on winning "right now" and losing long term assets for short term gain. Durant gets hurt. Durant gets coaches fired. Durant creates a circus. No. Honestly, I wish it would work with KAT. I really like the dude and he's been loyal. But tough decisions have to be made. Now, they could do one year of dipping into the 2nd apron and run it back as is. The issue I have is that NAW's deal is done at the end of next year. I dont know enough about the cap to know if we can resign him THIS offseason to extend his contract or not. But if not...and we cant resign him because of 2nd apron...we just lose that money unless we trade him during the offseason this year or during the season next year. NAZ would be a casualty the following year. I personally think having NAZ and NAW and what you'd get for KAT is better than just having KAT. I think I would trade kat straight up for Durant, even throwing in this year's 1st or the early 2nd. Your points about Durant are valid, but he's older now as doesn't have as much weight to throw around. He'd come to minny knowing he's 1b to Ant. He's also been a pretty good teammate when his teams are winning. Yes, he gets injured but so does towns. I also think towns's game won't age that well. I could see him and Durant regressing at about the same rate even though Durant is older. Durant is a decent defender, just different from towns with towns being able to take on bigger players. But the added shot making and more importantly, clutch baskets, he'd be able to really help the offense. Plus, his contract is 2 less years than towns. Now the question is would Phoenix do it? Their owner is an egomaniac who would think that he could "unlock" towns. Towns are booker are documented buddies and he'd fit in well on their team. If they were able to make this move, I think they'd be one of the top 3 teams. I don't love how Durant joins up with already good teams, but this time it'd be the team that I root for so I could make the exception. Hopefully the ownership ordeal gets settled quickly so the team will know who's in charge moving forward so important decisions can be made.
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Post by Bonecrusher on May 28, 2024 21:17:05 GMT -6
I would happily trade KAT for Durant even if you have to add a 1st. You only have a 1-2 year window with the whole Gobert trade. And I think a vet that knows how to win a title is what this team is missing. My only concern is you lose a few guys this offseason like SloMo and Morris. And they need PG help. I’m not sure how they make the math work for some of those types of roles. KAT (or Durant), Ant, Gobert, McDaniels and Reid eat up most of the salary cap. Jesus. I'm all for trading KAT but no way in hell for old aged decrepit Durant.
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