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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 4, 2024 8:43:33 GMT -6
After 35 years, this franchise is finally competitive and you people want it to take a step back? How Minnesota of you… I think this discussion is a much more nuanced discussion than the "gotta trade KAT" crowd as well as the "how could we trade KAT and take a step back" position. The facts are that KAT is a very talented player making a ton of money who has underperformed overall in the playoffs. He played better in the early rounds, but underperformed vs. Dallas and in general hasn't been a max level guy in the playoffs (and likely not even the regular season. Keeping KAT is very likely what we're going to do, but it does need to be said that while keeping KAT is the easier step to "not taking a step back" next year, that it also likely makes it more likely that we take a bigger step back in the coming years. I could also make the case that trading KAT doesn't necessarily mean taking a step back next year. Let's say the Wolves could trade KAT for Murray and Capela or Bogdanovic from Atlanta. The team changes, but is it worse? Murray is another guy who can create a shot which takes pressure off of Ant in ways that KAT hasn't/can't. With KAT's long term playoff record, are we sure that a trade makes us worse next year?
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Post by levine on Jun 4, 2024 8:49:03 GMT -6
Let's say the Wolves could trade KAT for Murray and Capela or Bogdanovic from Atlanta. The team changes, but is it worse? Absolutely. Since you can not play Gobert and Capela at the same time. Bogdanovic would be a nice bench piece, but adds nothing defensively. The only offer I even consider from ATL is Murray and Johnson. And I start out asking for the #1 pick as well (but I still probably do the deal w/o the pick)
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 4, 2024 11:45:18 GMT -6
Let's say the Wolves could trade KAT for Murray and Capela or Bogdanovic from Atlanta. The team changes, but is it worse? Absolutely. Since you can not play Gobert and Capela at the same time. Bogdanovic would be a nice bench piece, but adds nothing defensively. The only offer I even consider from ATL is Murray and Johnson. And I start out asking for the #1 pick as well (but I still probably do the deal w/o the pick) I guess I'm not that sure. We'd have better depth and the idea that playoff KAT is a better player than Murray could be in the playoffs isn't certain. Other than good D vs. Jokic this year, KAT hasn't performed consistently in the playoffs. Keeping KAT in this scenario also doesn't address backup PG. Assuming Mike will be healthy and effective all year again at 37 is tricky. Adding a reliable guy there is hard with KAT and the 2nd apron. It's certainly possible that the Wolves "run it back" with KAT and then flop because Conley misses 50 games and we don't have anything at PG. KAT is the most talented guy in the deal, but I don't think it's absolutely the case that KAT plus Conley and a minimum PG is the better team for a whole season.
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Post by levine on Jun 4, 2024 14:12:34 GMT -6
Absolutely. Since you can not play Gobert and Capela at the same time. Bogdanovic would be a nice bench piece, but adds nothing defensively. The only offer I even consider from ATL is Murray and Johnson. And I start out asking for the #1 pick as well (but I still probably do the deal w/o the pick) I guess I'm not that sure. We'd have better depth and the idea that playoff KAT is a better player than Murray could be in the playoffs isn't certain. Other than good D vs. Jokic this year, KAT hasn't performed consistently in the playoffs. Keeping KAT in this scenario also doesn't address backup PG. Assuming Mike will be healthy and effective all year again at 37 is tricky. Adding a reliable guy there is hard with KAT and the 2nd apron. It's certainly possible that the Wolves "run it back" with KAT and then flop because Conley misses 50 games and we don't have anything at PG. KAT is the most talented guy in the deal, but I don't think it's absolutely the case that KAT plus Conley and a minimum PG is the better team for a whole season. I guess it comes down to me thinking KAT was better in the Playoffs than you did. He definitely struggled against Dallas, but he was pretty great on both ends against Phoenix and Denver. Playing while he probably should've still been rehabbing his knee. Capela is a non-starter for me. He's Gobert with better hands and much worse defense. Barring a Rudy injury, I'm not sure he's a 10 minute/game player for us. I like Murray a good amount, but he's definitely not a Top 10 PG. That's not enough back for KAT. Adding Bogdanovic is nice, but it crowds our backcourt and makes our frontcourt dangerously thin (Rudy and Naz start and are backed up by McDaniels and Miller?) That's why Johnson absolutely has to be included in any Hawks deal. He's that bigger, athletic swing forward that can defend guys like Luka, Lively and Gafford. Plus he's a tremendous rebounder with an offensive game that has shown significant growth every year. Murray/Conley Ant/NAW McDaniels/Johnson/Miller(?) Johnson/Reid/SloMo(?) Gobert/Reid That's the kind of lineup that I could get behind. So many other scenarios really feel like excuses to either dump KAT the player or KAT the contract.
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Post by quinn on Jun 4, 2024 14:49:11 GMT -6
I guess I'm not that sure. We'd have better depth and the idea that playoff KAT is a better player than Murray could be in the playoffs isn't certain. Other than good D vs. Jokic this year, KAT hasn't performed consistently in the playoffs. Keeping KAT in this scenario also doesn't address backup PG. Assuming Mike will be healthy and effective all year again at 37 is tricky. Adding a reliable guy there is hard with KAT and the 2nd apron. It's certainly possible that the Wolves "run it back" with KAT and then flop because Conley misses 50 games and we don't have anything at PG. KAT is the most talented guy in the deal, but I don't think it's absolutely the case that KAT plus Conley and a minimum PG is the better team for a whole season. I guess it comes down to me thinking KAT was better in the Playoffs than you did. He definitely struggled against Dallas, but he was pretty great on both ends against Phoenix and Denver. Playing while he probably should've still been rehabbing his knee. Capela is a non-starter for me. He's Gobert with better hands and much worse defense. Barring a Rudy injury, I'm not sure he's a 10 minute/game player for us. I like Murray a good amount, but he's definitely not a Top 10 PG. That's not enough back for KAT. Adding Bogdanovic is nice, but it crowds our backcourt and makes our frontcourt dangerously thin (Rudy and Naz start and are backed up by McDaniels and Miller?) That's why Johnson absolutely has to be included in any Hawks deal. He's that bigger, athletic swing forward that can defend guys like Luka, Lively and Gafford. Plus he's a tremendous rebounder with an offensive game that has shown significant growth every year. Murray/Conley Ant/NAW McDaniels/Johnson/Miller(?) Johnson/Reid/SloMo(?) Gobert/Reid That's the kind of lineup that I could get behind. So many other scenarios really feel like excuses to either dump KAT the player or KAT the contract. This is a very fair take. Johnson has another year before his extension would kick in as well, meaning there is a good chance the new TV deal will have figured into the salary cap projections. I think the holdup would be the valuation of Murray. Even between you and xray, you value him less than xray. I think there still is some projection to do with Murray given he's 27 and was just in a horrible situation, we could maybe figure him into the top 10-12 PGs in the league discussion just given a new situation. If he's not top 10 right now, where do you think he ranks? I also don't think he's top 10, but I think he's closer to 10 than 20. From what I've heard as well, Jalen Johnson is the Naz Reid of the Hawks. It'd be a hard sell to the fans to give up Johnson. He is transforming into a valuable piece as well though. A very fun player to watch. I can't imagine they'd give up the number 1 pick in a trade, even though they probably should. If Atlanta is willing to trade Murray, Johnson, and 1 for KAT, that needs to be done yesterday. It'd be an absolute home run deal.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 4, 2024 15:32:22 GMT -6
I know Murray isn't a tier 1 PG, but I do think he's a better player than we saw in Atlanta. That's mostly to do with fit particularly on the defensive side. I think he can be a much better defender guarding smaller/lighter players. Playing next to Trae, he was always tasked with guarding bigger guys. Ant can take those guys a lot of the time. With his improved 3 pt shooting, I think he can be a guy that holds his own in high level playoff games.
The contract is also very appealing as he's locked in for 3 more years at decent money for a starting caliber PG.
Capela would be more salary filler than anything. Including him helps Atlanta balance the roster a little. For us next year, he's a 16-18mpg guy who just backs up Rudy and keeps him fresh. His expiring salary sets up the team so that we could keep Naz and NAW the following offseason.
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Post by levine on Jun 4, 2024 15:37:13 GMT -6
I know Murray isn't a tier 1 PG, but I do think he's a better player than we saw in Atlanta. That's mostly to do with fit particularly on the defensive side. I think he can be a much better defender guarding smaller/lighter players. Playing next to Trae, he was always tasked with guarding bigger guys. Ant can take those guys a lot of the time. With his improved 3 pt shooting, I think he can be a guy that holds his own in high level playoff games. The contract is also very appealing as he's locked in for 3 more years at decent money for a starting caliber PG. Capela would be more salary filler than anything. Including him helps Atlanta balance the roster a little. For us next year, he's a 16-18mpg guy who just backs up Rudy and keeps him fresh. His expiring salary sets up the team so that we could keep Naz and NAW the following offseason. I think that's valid. I just don't think we're still a contender next year with that trade.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 5, 2024 7:03:52 GMT -6
I think that's valid. I just don't think we're still a contender next year with that trade. Most likely not. We may not be with KAT though either. I think it's unlikely that we get the same level of health and production from Conley next year. Age just always wins. And it's not like KAT has stayed healthy these past few years either. Murray and Capela would help a lot as far as keeping Conley and Rudy fresh for the playoffs next season and that's no small thing. Murray, Ant and Conley is a pretty nice 3 guard rotation. I know it was a small sample size, but the Wolves did maintain their pace without KAT this year and we didn't play much differently with/without KAT the prior year either. Combine that with KAT's up and down performances in the playoffs and I guess I'm more confident than you are that we'd be at the same level as a team next year making this kind of deal. I'd also want to know if the Wolves would go further into the 2nd apron to resign Kyle. With KAT, there's fewer minutes for Kyle as a PF. If we'd move him for Murray, bringing back Kyle would make more sense IMO as we'd have minutes for him as a 4. Knowing more of if the Wolves thought they could get anything from Leonard Miller would help too. Obviously we're not counting on him for a major contribution, but if we think he could earn 10 min or so that would add to the discussion.
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Post by levine on Jun 5, 2024 9:51:49 GMT -6
Most likely not. We may not be with KAT though either. I think we're right there with all the best teams. My guess is if we played Dallas in the 2nd round this year, we win. We had everything stacked against us. Dallas had more rest, Luka was much more hobbled in the 2nd round. We also had the hangover from knocking off the defending champs in a dramatic 7 game series, while Dallas got to play an OKC team that was a year ahead of where they probably should've been (and have an extremely flawed roster for the Playoffs). KAT has been such a barometer for us in the Playoffs. When he plays well, we're really, really hard to beat. When he struggles, the whole team struggles. He added a lot more consistency this year to his overall game and part of me really wants to see if he can continue to build on that. Like I said before I really don't care how we did without KAT in the regular season. Just like the 76ers could win regular season games without Embiid, but had no chance of advancing in the Playoffs without him. I think the smartest thing we can do is run it back - unless we're absolutely blown away by an offer. IMO, Murray and Capela doesn't fit that bill.
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Post by jojo on Jun 5, 2024 12:16:10 GMT -6
Someone brought up how Kyrie re-invented himself this year after nearly a decade of relative dysfunction. Maybe he is a good comp for KAT who needs to do the same, although he made great strides this year in his defense and emotional temperament. Now he needs to focus on his offensive game, and I believe Finch will be pushing for this.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jun 5, 2024 12:25:30 GMT -6
Most likely not. We may not be with KAT though either. I think we're right there with all the best teams. My guess is if we played Dallas in the 2nd round this year, we win. We had everything stacked against us. Dallas had more rest, Luka was much more hobbled in the 2nd round. We also had the hangover from knocking off the defending champs in a dramatic 7 game series, while Dallas got to play an OKC team that was a year ahead of where they probably should've been (and have an extremely flawed roster for the Playoffs). KAT has been such a barometer for us in the Playoffs. When he plays well, we're really, really hard to beat. When he struggles, the whole team struggles. He added a lot more consistency this year to his overall game and part of me really wants to see if he can continue to build on that. Like I said before I really don't care how we did without KAT in the regular season. Just like the 76ers could win regular season games without Embiid, but had no chance of advancing in the Playoffs without him. I think the smartest thing we can do is run it back - unless we're absolutely blown away by an offer. IMO, Murray and Capela doesn't fit that bill. Someone really needs to remind KAT and the entire team about this. Remind them if we had been the #1 seed our road would have been much easier because our second round would have been Dallas and yes I do believe we would have beaten them. But then going up against Denver in the 3rd round may have had the same result unless Denver and Dallas beat each other up.
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Post by kingsxman on Jun 5, 2024 16:47:06 GMT -6
If we're thinking about a KAT trade, I really don't think there's much out there. My favorite idea is a trade centered on KAT for Garland to get a young guard next to Ant. Otherwise, I'll still bang the drum for Cam Johnson, DFS, and Phoenix picks from Brooklyn. Would there be interest in sending KAT to Golden State for something like:
GSW: KAT, WMJ MIN: CP3, Podziemski, Kuminga, Moody, picks You'd be able to get a massive expiring with CP3 and then some younger guys who could potentially fit in with Ant, Jaden, and Naz and foster in a new younger generation of Wolves. We'd likely be taking a step back, but I think there's a real shot with the veteran leadership of Paul and Rudy, we could potentially remain as competitive as we were this year. This is probably wishful thinking, but as far as Golden State goes: what about a KAT for Steph trade? We'd probably have to give up more than we'd like to give up to get him, and hes' like 36. GS hasnt realized it yet but I think they need to start the rebuild. Better to start a year early then realize you've started a year late. Steph probably wants to retire a Warrior but if he's got a desire for a ring....pairing him and Ant may be as good of a bet as any other team he could go go. We'd be giving up a very talented 28 year old who needs a change of scenery. Just throwing it out as I got thinking about it yesterday.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jun 6, 2024 8:37:21 GMT -6
If we're thinking about a KAT trade, I really don't think there's much out there. My favorite idea is a trade centered on KAT for Garland to get a young guard next to Ant. Otherwise, I'll still bang the drum for Cam Johnson, DFS, and Phoenix picks from Brooklyn. Would there be interest in sending KAT to Golden State for something like:
GSW: KAT, WMJ MIN: CP3, Podziemski, Kuminga, Moody, picks You'd be able to get a massive expiring with CP3 and then some younger guys who could potentially fit in with Ant, Jaden, and Naz and foster in a new younger generation of Wolves. We'd likely be taking a step back, but I think there's a real shot with the veteran leadership of Paul and Rudy, we could potentially remain as competitive as we were this year. This is probably wishful thinking, but as far as Golden State goes: what about a KAT for Steph trade? We'd probably have to give up more than we'd like to give up to get him, and hes' like 36. GS hasnt realized it yet but I think they need to start the rebuild. Better to start a year early then realize you've started a year late. Steph probably wants to retire a Warrior but if he's got a desire for a ring....pairing him and Ant may be as good of a bet as any other team he could go go. We'd be giving up a very talented 28 year old who needs a change of scenery. Just throwing it out as I got thinking about it yesterday. Steph is washed up/done. No way I trade KAT for him. No washed up players for KAT no matter how good they were.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 6, 2024 9:33:49 GMT -6
Steph is washed up/done. No way I trade KAT for him. No washed up players for KAT no matter how good they were. Are you serious? He was 3rd team all-nba and 12th in the league by EPM. He can't be the #1 on a title team anymore, but his gravity would be awesome next to Ant. Additionally, it sure looks like we're going to be over the 2nd apron, so we can't trade for Curry in the first place as you can't aggregate salaries. Even if that wasn't the case there's also no way that GS wouldn't trade Curry for KAT.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jun 6, 2024 12:10:03 GMT -6
Steph is washed up/done. No way I trade KAT for him. No washed up players for KAT no matter how good they were. Are you serious? He was 3rd team all-nba and 12th in the league by EPM. He can't be the #1 on a title team anymore, but his gravity would be awesome next to Ant. Additionally, it sure looks like we're going to be over the 2nd apron, so we can't trade for Curry in the first place as you can't aggregate salaries. Even if that wasn't the case there's also no way that GS wouldn't trade Curry for KAT. 36 year old superstar for 26 or 28 (don't recall KAT's age) semi-superstar. Rather have 8 years of KAT figuring it out than Steph who might give us a championship run (when we just had a decent run). Plus I think the Wolves burned themselves out in the Denver series. Upcoming year aim for #1 seed. Get KAT to the corner for wide open 3's. Get Gobert more involved in our offense. Take some acting lessons on flopping and use that to flop whenever we play Doncic.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 6, 2024 14:49:05 GMT -6
Are you serious? He was 3rd team all-nba and 12th in the league by EPM. He can't be the #1 on a title team anymore, but his gravity would be awesome next to Ant. Additionally, it sure looks like we're going to be over the 2nd apron, so we can't trade for Curry in the first place as you can't aggregate salaries. Even if that wasn't the case there's also no way that GS wouldn't trade Curry for KAT. 36 year old superstar for 26 or 28 (don't recall KAT's age) semi-superstar. Rather have 8 years of KAT figuring it out than Steph who might give us a championship run (when we just had a decent run). Plus I think the Wolves burned themselves out in the Denver series. Upcoming year aim for #1 seed. Get KAT to the corner for wide open 3's. Get Gobert more involved in our offense. Take some acting lessons on flopping and use that to flop whenever we play Doncic. It's true that KAT for a guy like Curry or KD would change the timeline, but I'm just of the opinion that we're going to need a 2 timeline option regardless of whether we deal KAT now or not. It's also mostly about KAT the contract rather than KAT the player. If KAT were on a something more reasonable like a deal averaging 45 or even 50M then you run it back and we could trade KAT down the line if it's not working. KAT's going to be making upper 50s in a few years though and hasn't been able to stay healthy. That contract could be huge albatross on a team trying to win around Ant in his prime. Basically by waiting I think it's possible that it becomes harder and harder to trade for anything of any value. I'd personally rather get a better player in the present like Steph or KD as an example and then make a true pivot in a couple of years when Conley and that player age out and Rudy is declining. Doesn't matter anyway as we literally can't trade for either Curry or KD because of the 2nd apron.
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Jun 6, 2024 18:11:28 GMT -6
How about Kawhi for KAT? Would you guys go for it? Kawhi could possibly bottle up Luka in a playoff series... When healthy!
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Post by Scorched on Jun 6, 2024 21:11:12 GMT -6
How about Kawhi for KAT? Would you guys go for it? Kawhi could possibly bottle up Luka in a playoff series... When healthy! Kawhi was willing to act like a bitch to maybe the most world class organization in professional sports in order to work his way to LA. No way he leaves that to come to MN.
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Post by kingsxman on Jun 7, 2024 7:43:47 GMT -6
How about Kawhi for KAT? Would you guys go for it? Kawhi could possibly bottle up Luka in a playoff series... When healthy! I'd prefer to have someone who isnt made of glass. I hadnt thought about the 2nd apron stuff before. Quite litterally Curry is the only one of the "older" stars that I'd consider because he is a guy who would make others better, has a championship pedegree, and I think would just compliment Ants skillset better than anyone else. But with any of these older stars there is injury risk. The ONLY reason I would consider trading KAT is if you get good value and make the team better. I dont like the thought of trading KAT as in theory he's also a perfect fit next to Ant. Howevever, he refuses to do the things that we need him to do (shoot) to help Ant the most. IF KAT would agree to actually work on getting 3's this next season and be someone who takes 8-10 a game....then I'd want to stop any talk of a trade. But I just dont think its in his mental makeup to do that. 2 to 4-3 point attempts a game doesnt cut it.
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Post by Bonecrusher on Jun 7, 2024 8:01:18 GMT -6
Ideally I would hope any KAT trade would include a young PG stud. Jrue shutdown Kyrie and Boston easily won game 1. Conley, nor Monte or JMac did anything with Kyrie.
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Post by tmill720 on Jun 7, 2024 8:32:28 GMT -6
Ideally I would hope any KAT trade would include a young PG stud. Jrue shutdown Kyrie and Boston easily won game 1. Conley, nor Monte or JMac did anything with Kyrie. Boston has 5 switchable guys. We have potential for that with Ant/Jaden/NAW and awkwardly Rudy, but that's about it from a true switchability standpoint. Conley is great but you do have to hide him on defense which makes it really difficult to scramble around. My wish list for a PG of the future is someone with true size.
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 7, 2024 12:54:13 GMT -6
Boston has 5 switchable guys. We have potential for that with Ant/Jaden/NAW and awkwardly Rudy, but that's about it from a true switchability standpoint. Conley is great but you do have to hide him on defense which makes it really difficult to scramble around. My wish list for a PG of the future is someone with true size. I don't think DeJounte Murray is universally switchable, but his defense is one of the things that intrigue me about him in a possible KAT trade. As I've said, he's not a lockdown guy, but at 6'5" he can switch onto guys without getting roasted. As your worst perimeter defender, we'd be in a good position with perimeter defense.
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Post by tmill720 on Jun 7, 2024 13:39:19 GMT -6
Boston has 5 switchable guys. We have potential for that with Ant/Jaden/NAW and awkwardly Rudy, but that's about it from a true switchability standpoint. Conley is great but you do have to hide him on defense which makes it really difficult to scramble around. My wish list for a PG of the future is someone with true size. I don't think DeJounte Murray is universally switchable, but his defense is one of the things that intrigue me about him in a possible KAT trade. As I've said, he's not a lockdown guy, but at 6'5" he can switch onto guys without getting roasted. As your worst perimeter defender, we'd be in a good position with perimeter defense. Yep, if we're trading Karl (which I doubt we are this year), DeJounte and Brandon Ingram are the two guys rumored in hypothetical KAT deals that I'd be interested in. Long and can create their own shot.
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Post by levine on Jun 7, 2024 13:50:35 GMT -6
I don't think DeJounte Murray is universally switchable, but his defense is one of the things that intrigue me about him in a possible KAT trade. As I've said, he's not a lockdown guy, but at 6'5" he can switch onto guys without getting roasted. As your worst perimeter defender, we'd be in a good position with perimeter defense. Yep, if we're trading Karl (which I doubt we are this year), DeJounte and Brandon Ingram are the two guys rumored in hypothetical KAT deals that I'd be interested in. Long and can create their own shot. We better be getting Herb Jones and Trey Murphy too...
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Post by XRaySpecs on Jun 7, 2024 14:26:48 GMT -6
I don't think DeJounte Murray is universally switchable, but his defense is one of the things that intrigue me about him in a possible KAT trade. As I've said, he's not a lockdown guy, but at 6'5" he can switch onto guys without getting roasted. As your worst perimeter defender, we'd be in a good position with perimeter defense. Yep, if we're trading Karl (which I doubt we are this year), DeJounte and Brandon Ingram are the two guys rumored in hypothetical KAT deals that I'd be interested in. Long and can create their own shot. Ingram is long and he can create his own shot, but is he actually good? He always misses games, isn't a great defender, his offense is not the most efficient as the shots he creates are a lot of 2 pt jumpers. I don't want to be the team that has to pay him a bunch of money after next year.
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