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Post by kingsxman on May 28, 2024 21:57:34 GMT -6
As a long time person leading the charge of not believing that KAT is someone to build a championship team around, this was a very interesting season. We'll see how the next couple of games go, maybe we can drag this out to 6 but the writing is on the wall historically. We won't make it to game 5 if KAT plays like he has been playing though. As far as the season goes, the do not trade KAT contingent won. He was fitting in as the #2 to Ant and 2nd primary scorer and fully bought into the team. As far as the playoff goes, the flaws of KAT in the highest leverage games have been exposed. His primary value as a player in the postseason was from his ability to play defense on Durant relatively well against the Suns and he was our best defensive option 1 on 1 versus Jokic. That's impressive. But he hasn't provided very much value offensively. And it's really tough to see how he ever drives value offensively against the best teams in the NBA in the playoffs. He's not a shot creator, and that's what wins games in the playoffs. He needs to rely on others to set him up for 3's and he hasn't even hit those for whatever reason. He's essentially a spot up shooter and those are not $50M dollar players. You can't trust him to drive or post up right now. The other big argument for trading KAT was you had 80-90% of him in Naz being paid at 25% of his pay. In the playoffs it appears Naz is roughly 99-110% of KAT depending on the night. The same question has to be asked over and over again, if we are going to position an Ant lead franchise to win a title, how do we construct a team around him? It's not that KAT isn't valuable, but at $50M a year without another shot creator on the roster, it's very tough to see how you can construct a team that's going to win a title. You can find defensive bigs who can guard. But spending $50M a year on a guy who can't create his own shot and who hamstrings your options on finding another real creator for the roster seems like a tough choice to land on and you would be betting against a lengthy body of evidence. There are 3 teams that have gone on runs to conference finals that I'm reminded of right now. The first two are the Blazers and the Hawks. Both teams did it on the backs of dynamic scoring guards and then they doubled down on the rosters they had built with the belief things would continue to improve. They were wrong and are both either in a rebuild or facing a rebuild. The other is Dallas. They made it with Luka but they kept flexibility and struck when there was an opportunity to strike to add a secondary creator and defensive infrastructure that Luka and Kyrie needed to win. The Wolves road for making a decision is short. Rudy's contract is approaching an end in 2 seasons (assuming he picks up his player option). KAT's extension kicks in, Ant's, and Jaden's. You could run it back next year knowing you didn't pay the tax this year with Conley's incentives not hitting with a finals run but is that the right move? This roster lacks 2 things that Ant will need to continue his development, shooting, and someone else who can put the ball on the floor and get a bucket. A depressed asset like Kyrie is not out there, but that may not be what we need. The nucleus overall is strong. If Naz plays 35 minutes a night, I think he's a 20 ppg player, he's just that skilled. I'm glad they didn't trade KAT. It was the right move. But I don't think it will continue to be the right move. We have seen evidence on both sides but the fact that KAT's primary value in the playoffs has been due to his defense is enough for me to say I would rather repurpose that $50M and sell the asset now rather than continue to run it back with the same roster with the belief it's just going to workout. I thought this was an interesting post by Dane: WTF. Did anyone see the twitter post that I initally had on here about Dane saying Towns needed to shoot more 3's? I swear it was here but I looked at Danes feed and its no longer there. Did someone "get to him" about it?
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Post by cory on May 31, 2024 4:57:08 GMT -6
I did see that when it was up. I still don’t think it’s a solution in the playoffs though. You don’t need $50M players as your floor spreaders. You need $50M to be offensive creators who can take over games when Ant sits or is off. Is that KAT? He’s always going to need some help to get his. He’s a great shooter but he’s not even a Dirk who could be your offensive hub on a great team.
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Post by wolvesco on May 31, 2024 5:51:39 GMT -6
If they do trade KAT, his value will never be higher coming off an All Star selection and a Western Conf Finals.
I don’t know who they could get
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Post by stretcharmstrong on May 31, 2024 11:02:10 GMT -6
I was more likely to be on the trade KAT train prior to this season. But, he has adjusted to being a 1B or 2 on the team to Ant. He has adjusted to playing with Rudy.
We lost to Dallas because none of our players could defend Irving and Doncic. It was a sum of parts.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 11:11:02 GMT -6
I was more likely to be on the trade KAT train prior to this season. But, he has adjusted to being a 1B or 2 on the team to Ant. He has adjusted to playing with Rudy. We lost to Dallas because none of our players could defend Irving and Doncic. It was a sum of parts. No bench and a hurt Mike Conley were big factors too.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 11:34:03 GMT -6
I was more likely to be on the trade KAT train prior to this season. But, he has adjusted to being a 1B or 2 on the team to Ant. He has adjusted to playing with Rudy. We lost to Dallas because none of our players could defend Irving and Doncic. It was a sum of parts. No bench and a hurt Mike Conley were big factors too. This has been my issue all along with your "he can play 3 more years" mantra. He absolutely can. But not as a starter. He should be a 20-25 MPG fantastic bench player. But we need a more dynamic guy to start opposite Ant.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 11:59:16 GMT -6
No bench and a hurt Mike Conley were big factors too. This has been my issue all along with your "he can play 3 more years" mantra. He absolutely can. But not as a starter. He should be a 20-25 MPG fantastic bench player. But we need a more dynamic guy to start opposite Ant. I don't disagree. That's where I'd move Kyle Anderson and get another guard.
Between KA and J Mac that's about 13 mil or so opened up.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 12:26:13 GMT -6
This has been my issue all along with your "he can play 3 more years" mantra. He absolutely can. But not as a starter. He should be a 20-25 MPG fantastic bench player. But we need a more dynamic guy to start opposite Ant. I don't disagree. That's where I'd move Kyle Anderson and get another guard.
Between KA and J Mac that's about 13 mil or so opened up.
So who is the starting caliber 13M guard that a team will take a sign and traded KA for?
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Post by Scorched on May 31, 2024 12:43:47 GMT -6
No bench and a hurt Mike Conley were big factors too. This has been my issue all along with your "he can play 3 more years" mantra. He absolutely can. But not as a starter. He should be a 20-25 MPG fantastic bench player. But we need a more dynamic guy to start opposite Ant. Like a Dejounte Murray? I'm still holding out hope.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 12:48:55 GMT -6
This has been my issue all along with your "he can play 3 more years" mantra. He absolutely can. But not as a starter. He should be a 20-25 MPG fantastic bench player. But we need a more dynamic guy to start opposite Ant. Like a Dejounte Murray? I'm still holding out hope. That would be a start, but we better get a lot more or we're a worse team than this year. I get that KAT has his warts, but no way we beat Denver without him. And we definitely don't sweep Phoenix. I hope these Playoffs put an end to the "Naz can give us 80-90% of KAT" talks. Naz is awesome in his role. He's a microwave scorer off the bench. But I'm pretty sure the cracks in his game will get real big as a starter. He just spent 16 Playoff games giving us erratic (at best) scoring while really struggling to defend and rebound. His "splash" blocks against Jokic were amazing, but outside of those types of plays, he was routinely destroyed on defense.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 12:52:46 GMT -6
I don't disagree. That's where I'd move Kyle Anderson and get another guard.
Between KA and J Mac that's about 13 mil or so opened up.
So who is the starting caliber 13M guard that a team will take a sign and traded KA for? Not a clue. I haven't looked. I'll leave that to the GM.
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Post by stretcharmstrong on May 31, 2024 12:55:50 GMT -6
I was more likely to be on the trade KAT train prior to this season. But, he has adjusted to being a 1B or 2 on the team to Ant. He has adjusted to playing with Rudy. We lost to Dallas because none of our players could defend Irving and Doncic. It was a sum of parts. No bench and a hurt Mike Conley were big factors too. We have 3 bench players that contribute. What we do not have is a decent PG back up. I said it at the trade deadline that we needed a scorer for the bench. They got Morris. I indicated early on that his play was not all that great off the bench. I will still say the same thing. We need a scoring PG off the bench. Someone who can Guard a larger PG or shooter.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 13:02:22 GMT -6
Like a Dejounte Murray? I'm still holding out hope. That would be a start, but we better get a lot more or we're a worse team than this year. I get that KAT has his warts, but no way we beat Denver without him. And we definitely don't sweep Phoenix. I hope these Playoffs put an end to the "Naz can give us 80-90% of KAT" talks. Naz is awesome in his role. He's a microwave scorer off the bench. But I'm pretty sure the cracks in his game will get real big as a starter. He just spent 16 Playoff games giving us erratic (at best) scoring while really struggling to defend and rebound. His "splash" blocks against Jokic were amazing, but outside of those types of plays, he was routinely destroyed on defense. Geez-us Levine, I couldn't agree more. You are finally coming around. :)
Do you think they move Gobert? He was horrible against Dallas. Not so hot against Denver either.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 13:07:41 GMT -6
That would be a start, but we better get a lot more or we're a worse team than this year. I get that KAT has his warts, but no way we beat Denver without him. And we definitely don't sweep Phoenix. I hope these Playoffs put an end to the "Naz can give us 80-90% of KAT" talks. Naz is awesome in his role. He's a microwave scorer off the bench. But I'm pretty sure the cracks in his game will get real big as a starter. He just spent 16 Playoff games giving us erratic (at best) scoring while really struggling to defend and rebound. His "splash" blocks against Jokic were amazing, but outside of those types of plays, he was routinely destroyed on defense. Geez-us Levine, I couldn't agree more. You are finally coming around. :)
Do you think they move Gobert? He was horrible against Dallas. Not so hot against Denver either.
I would still consider moving KAT. It just needs to be a trade that makes us a better team - even if its a downgrade in talent. Like I'd trade KAT for PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford in a heartbeat. And those two guys will make a combined 56M over the next 2 seasons, while KAT will get 102M on his own.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 13:08:23 GMT -6
So who is the starting caliber 13M guard that a team will take a sign and traded KA for? Not a clue. I haven't looked. I'll leave that to the GM. I'll do the work for you. The answer is there isn't a trade to be had.
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Post by Bonecrusher on May 31, 2024 14:22:13 GMT -6
Not a clue. I haven't looked. I'll leave that to the GM. I'll do the work for you. The answer is there isn't a trade to be had. Sadly true. Not many teams can absorb his salary and that have a player we may want.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 14:49:36 GMT -6
I'll do the work for you. The answer is there isn't a trade to be had. Sadly true. Not many teams can absorb his salary and that have a player we may want. You're not going to find many contender-level starting PGs for 13M. And you're going to find even fewer that are available for a sign and traded SloMo.
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Post by kingsxman on May 31, 2024 17:08:58 GMT -6
Sadly true. Not many teams can absorb his salary and that have a player we may want. You're not going to find many contender-level starting PGs for 13M. And you're going to find even fewer that are available for a sign and traded SloMo. I'm hoping that slomo comes back on a team friendly deal. Apparently Dane said the slomo vibes were that he felt he wouldnt be back next year. But I know Kyle said that he really likes it here and his kid, who has special needs, found a really good school. So thats important. Mike took a cut to stay. Maybe lightning could strike twice and slomo stays. Re: KAT. I hear you on that we dont beat Phx and Denver without him. But WITH him, will we be able to put a team around he, Ant and Gobert in the upcoming years. We could probably run it back next year and take 1 year of 2nd apron but they're not doing it for 2 years straight. It just all depends on what kind of offers you get. Dane also said that the sum of hte parts for Ant/KAT isnt as good as the parts themselves. I agree.
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 17:18:00 GMT -6
You're not going to find many contender-level starting PGs for 13M. And you're going to find even fewer that are available for a sign and traded SloMo. I'm hoping that slomo comes back on a team friendly deal. Apparently Dane said the slomo vibes were that he felt he wouldnt be back next year. But I know Kyle said that he really likes it here and his kid, who has special needs, found a really good school. So thats important. Mike took a cut to stay. Maybe lightning could strike twice and slomo stays. Re: KAT. I hear you on that we dont beat Phx and Denver without him. But WITH him, will we be able to put a team around he, Ant and Gobert in the upcoming years. We could probably run it back next year and take 1 year of 2nd apron but they're not doing it for 2 years straight. It just all depends on what kind of offers you get. Dane also said that the sum of hte parts for Ant/KAT isnt as good as the parts themselves. I agree. How many years? Gobert only has 1 or 2 years remaining on his deal. To be a better team than we were this year we're basically going to need to trade KAT for a superstar creator. So somebody probably a few steps up from a Dejounte Murray. AND we're going to need either Miller to make a HUGE leap or find a PF that's a better all-around player than Naz.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 17:44:06 GMT -6
Sadly true. Not many teams can absorb his salary and that have a player we may want. You're not going to find many contender-level starting PGs for 13M. And you're going to find even fewer that are available for a sign and traded SloMo. David, I don't understand. Why a sign and trade for Kyle? His deal is up this year 9,219.000. Doesn't he come off the books? Wouldn't he be a free agent?
I'm just looking at basketball reference.
BTW, Conley was plagued by a bad calf issue this playoffs. Young and old get that. I get the age thing but.....
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Post by levine on May 31, 2024 17:55:06 GMT -6
You're not going to find many contender-level starting PGs for 13M. And you're going to find even fewer that are available for a sign and traded SloMo. David, I don't understand. Why a sign and trade for Kyle? His deal is up this year 9,219.000. Doesn't he come off the books? Wouldn't he be a free agent?
I'm just looking at basketball reference.
BTW, Conley was plagued by a bad calf issue this playoffs. Young and old get that. I get the age thing but.....
Yes he's a free agent. But the salary cap has never worked like you're suggesting. When you're over the cap, you don't get to just sign new players for whatever the exiting players made. If we don't re-sign him, we lose his "salary slot". The only way to turn his contract into another player is through a sign and trade. Conley has always had health issues. To expect them to get better at age 37 is wishful thinking. The best you can hope for is he has his annual injury early in the year and is healthy for the Playoffs. But fatigue is also always going to be an issue.
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Post by Nick K on May 31, 2024 18:27:39 GMT -6
David, I don't understand. Why a sign and trade for Kyle? His deal is up this year 9,219.000. Doesn't he come off the books? Wouldn't he be a free agent?
I'm just looking at basketball reference.
BTW, Conley was plagued by a bad calf issue this playoffs. Young and old get that. I get the age thing but.....
Yes he's a free agent. But the salary cap has never worked like you're suggesting. When you're over the cap, you don't get to just sign new players for whatever the exiting players made. If we don't re-sign him, we lose his "salary slot". The only way to turn his contract into another player is through a sign and trade. Conley has always had health issues. To expect them to get better at age 37 is wishful thinking. The best you can hope for is he has his annual injury early in the year and is healthy for the Playoffs. But fatigue is also always going to be an issue. Thanks David. Admittedly I'm not well versed on the cap. That's why I rely on you.
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Post by quinn on Jun 1, 2024 10:52:14 GMT -6
If we're thinking about a KAT trade, I really don't think there's much out there. My favorite idea is a trade centered on KAT for Garland to get a young guard next to Ant. Otherwise, I'll still bang the drum for Cam Johnson, DFS, and Phoenix picks from Brooklyn.
Would there be interest in sending KAT to Golden State for something like:
GSW: KAT, WMJ MIN: CP3, Podziemski, Kuminga, Moody, picks
You'd be able to get a massive expiring with CP3 and then some younger guys who could potentially fit in with Ant, Jaden, and Naz and foster in a new younger generation of Wolves. We'd likely be taking a step back, but I think there's a real shot with the veteran leadership of Paul and Rudy, we could potentially remain as competitive as we were this year.
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Post by levine on Jun 1, 2024 12:09:43 GMT -6
If we're thinking about a KAT trade, I really don't think there's much out there. My favorite idea is a trade centered on KAT for Garland to get a young guard next to Ant. Otherwise, I'll still bang the drum for Cam Johnson, DFS, and Phoenix picks from Brooklyn. Would there be interest in sending KAT to Golden State for something like: GSW: KAT, WMJ MIN: CP3, Podziemski, Kuminga, Moody, picks You'd be able to get a massive expiring with CP3 and then some younger guys who could potentially fit in with Ant, Jaden, and Naz and foster in a new younger generation of Wolves. We'd likely be taking a step back, but I think there's a real shot with the veteran leadership of Paul and Rudy, we could potentially remain as competitive as we were this year. I don't see Finch wanting Garland. He doesn't fit the physical profile that Finch seems to look for. He's tiny, a really poor defender and misses at least a dozen games every single year. Plus, he really struggles in the Playoffs. The more physical play really throws him off.
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Post by BIG BAD WOLF on Jun 3, 2024 19:02:20 GMT -6
After 35 years, this franchise is finally competitive and you people want it to take a step back? How Minnesota of you…
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