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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 9:19:24 GMT -6
What do you mean not a bad haul? IT is an awful haul for Butler. Two average to below average bench players and a 2nd round pick. Can you tell me why you think No defense Covington with a bad shot and slow footed Saric is a good haul at all? Stretch has always been a troll. Is it possible to block posters on this site? Lighten up. It's possible to have multiple opinions about a topic. Groupthink stinks.
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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 9:30:14 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it?
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Post by levine on Nov 11, 2018 9:36:47 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it? Yes. Zach is super fun, but I doubt he’s ever as helpful to a winning team (or as good) as Covington. Saric and Makennen is likely close to a wash. I don’t like Dunn.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 11, 2018 9:42:07 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it? Add McConnell to that on our return haul and I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Post by OmegaWolfFan on Nov 11, 2018 11:50:58 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it?
No for me. I've always had a soft spot for LaVine since his draft days and I still do even now Dude is bad on defense but he's quite solid offensively. Lauri is a worthy prospect valued more than RC or Saric. And then Dunn is just icing on the cake. Basically, if we still had LaVine as well, I would've not maxed out Wiggins and instead traded him. I think having at least two young gunning wings makes it easier for management to trade one or the other.
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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 11:55:53 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it?
No for me. I've always had a soft spot for LaVine since his draft days and I still do even now Dude is bad on defense but he's quite solid offensively. Lauri is a worthy prospect valued more than RC or Saric. And then Dunn is just icing on the cake. Basically, if we still had LaVine as well, I would've not maxed out Wiggins and instead traded him. I think having at least two young gunning wings makes it easier for management to trade one or the other. I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 11, 2018 12:56:53 GMT -6
No for me. I've always had a soft spot for LaVine since his draft days and I still do even now Dude is bad on defense but he's quite solid offensively. Lauri is a worthy prospect valued more than RC or Saric. And then Dunn is just icing on the cake. Basically, if we still had LaVine as well, I would've not maxed out Wiggins and instead traded him. I think having at least two young gunning wings makes it easier for management to trade one or the other. I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team. Sub out Thibs, sub in Mitchell, make the above trade - and I think we would have made it last year.
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Post by OmegaWolfFan on Nov 11, 2018 14:54:43 GMT -6
I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team. Sub out Thibs, sub in Mitchell, make the above trade - and I think we would have made it last year.
Mitchell, as in Sam Mitchell???
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Post by Bonecrusher on Nov 11, 2018 15:00:51 GMT -6
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Post by stretcharmstrong on Nov 11, 2018 15:27:55 GMT -6
No for me. I've always had a soft spot for LaVine since his draft days and I still do even now Dude is bad on defense but he's quite solid offensively. Lauri is a worthy prospect valued more than RC or Saric. And then Dunn is just icing on the cake. Basically, if we still had LaVine as well, I would've not maxed out Wiggins and instead traded him. I think having at least two young gunning wings makes it easier for management to trade one or the other. I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team. And therein lies the essence, we are not a better team after all this is done. Maybe we broke even in the Covington/Saric for Lavine/Markkanen swap. We really did not add any upside or any ability to get the team to the playoffs. We got no upside as the players we got in return have likely reached their ceiling in the NBA. There is a reason that Philadelphia got rid of these two players for Butler. Because they already knew that they did not have the skills to continue to build the team with. They are both limited players that hurt them more than helped. Fans in Philly are happy they are gone after having seen them on the court and what they bring. Sports radio for the last year in Philly has been very critical of both players and the need to have someone else on the team to be able to get to another level. And not in the fickle way that fans are, in a reasonable criticism that neither player fits long term on a winning team.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 11, 2018 15:35:17 GMT -6
Sub out Thibs, sub in Mitchell, make the above trade - and I think we would have made it last year.
Mitchell, as in Sam Mitchell???
Yeah...he had them playing well at the end of the 15-16 season.
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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 15:49:01 GMT -6
I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team. And therein lies the essence, we are not a better team after all this is done. Maybe we broke even in the Covington/Saric for Lavine/Markkanen swap. We really did not add any upside or any ability to get the team to the playoffs. We got no upside as the players we got in return have likely reached their ceiling in the NBA. There is a reason that Philadelphia got rid of these two players for Butler. Because they already knew that they did not have the skills to continue to build the team with. They are both limited players that hurt them more than helped. Fans in Philly are happy they are gone after having seen them on the court and what they bring. Sports radio for the last year in Philly has been very critical of both players and the need to have someone else on the team to be able to get to another level. And not in the fickle way that fans are, in a reasonable criticism that neither player fits long term on a winning team. Saric certainly has not reached his potential in the league. Covington probably has, but he is a great defensive player with size, which is what every good team needs. You can't judge anything on the reaction of Philly fans. They are the worst fans in professional sports and rip on everybody, all the time. You don't get equal value when trading away a star player, but I felt like we fleeced Chicago when we traded for Butler. So, at the end of the day, it's probably a wash. We gave up Lavine's exciting offense for Covington's lockdown defense, and I think we have yet to determine if Saric or Markkanen will have the better career. Dunn and the 2nd round pick are equivalent, in my book.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 11, 2018 16:27:07 GMT -6
We all know Saric can shoot but what else can he do? Check this link out.
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Post by stretcharmstrong on Nov 11, 2018 16:29:36 GMT -6
And therein lies the essence, we are not a better team after all this is done. Maybe we broke even in the Covington/Saric for Lavine/Markkanen swap. We really did not add any upside or any ability to get the team to the playoffs. We got no upside as the players we got in return have likely reached their ceiling in the NBA. There is a reason that Philadelphia got rid of these two players for Butler. Because they already knew that they did not have the skills to continue to build the team with. They are both limited players that hurt them more than helped. Fans in Philly are happy they are gone after having seen them on the court and what they bring. Sports radio for the last year in Philly has been very critical of both players and the need to have someone else on the team to be able to get to another level. And not in the fickle way that fans are, in a reasonable criticism that neither player fits long term on a winning team. Saric certainly has not reached his potential in the league. Covington probably has, but he is a great defensive player with size, which is what every good team needs. You can't judge anything on the reaction of Philly fans. They are the worst fans in professional sports and rip on everybody, all the time. You don't get equal value when trading away a star player, but I felt like we fleeced Chicago when we traded for Butler. So, at the end of the day, it's probably a wash. We gave up Lavine's exciting offense for Covington's lockdown defense, and I think we have yet to determine if Saric or Markkanen will have the better career. Dunn and the 2nd round pick are equivalent, in my book. Saric has no athleticism and cannot play defense. Where is his upside coming from? He can occasionally shoot well, but he also misses a lot. It is why he is sub 400 at 3 and just over 400 inside the line. He cannot make a shot for himself. Covington is very streaky as a player, which is what makes people frustrated with him. He has mental lapses on defense and offense. You traded Lavine for another player who cannot play defense and limited offense plus Markanen for Covington or vice versa. As you said it is a wash, that is my concern at the end of all the trading the team is no better than before trading Lavine and Markkanen. Which to me means we would have been better off keeping them, we may actually have trade value in them over Covington and Saric. Sairc is not suddenly going to gain an ability to play defense or be athletic. Covington is not suddenly going to go into a different gear in the league, he is what he is. I live in Philadelphia and I am well aware of the fans here. What I have stated is the concerns generated about these players is actually genuine. I could be wrong and will gladly admit it if I am in the long run. I think in time several people will see the concerns with the two players. There is a reason Philadelphia gave up on the two players. This is not something that just happened, about mid season last year concerns were being expressed about both the players. Essentially, their liability will hinder the team from being an effective play off team, which is exactly what happened.
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Post by cory on Nov 11, 2018 17:27:39 GMT -6
We all know Saric can shoot but what else can he do? Check this link out.
He'll be very good in an uptempo system that relies on ball movement and spacing. Hopefully the next coach runs one.
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Post by cory on Nov 11, 2018 17:36:47 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it? It's close enough to a wash that we should feel very lucky and it's a much better fit for the roster so maybe Covington and Saric is the best outcome for the franchise. I think I'm higher on Markannen but at the same time, his final destination as a player is going to be a modern C and that means he's not a great fit with KAT. Saric is more of a playmaking, stretch 4, probably a better and more consistent Bjelly that we all dreamed would come true but never did. That's really valuable for KAT I think. I don't think I'd take Covington over Lavine heads up but for this team, no question he's a better fit. We desperately need defenders and low volume players. The only real debate isn't really Covington but was losing Zach over Wiggins the right call. I posted earlier that it wasn't great to see the ultimate Zach, #7, and Dunn deal turn into Covington and Saric but it's also not the end of the world. I would not want to pay Zach $20 million a year but hopefully we don't have to shell that out for Saric either. This roster looks like it is much more capable to be built around then it did 2 days ago. I'm hopeful that more is done but we'll see.
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Post by vlad on Nov 11, 2018 17:42:39 GMT -6
So, if we could go back in time and you were GM of the Wolves and had the opportunity to trade Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine and Lauri Markkenen for Robert Covington, Dario Saric and a second round pick, would you do it? Yes. Zach is super fun, but I doubt he’s ever as helpful to a winning team (or as good) as Covington. Saric and Makennen is likely close to a wash. I don’t like Dunn. Zach is paid double compared to Covington. So they are no close in value.
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Post by boognish on Nov 11, 2018 17:44:24 GMT -6
We all know Saric can shoot but what else can he do? Check this link out.
Wow, some pretty nifty passes. I honestly haven't watched Philly all that much; I'm excited to see these new players and figure out what they are all about.
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Post by Nick K on Nov 11, 2018 22:57:59 GMT -6
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 12, 2018 3:48:50 GMT -6
Gotta disagree on this point regarding his defense, Stretch. He has "moments" but few NBA players are on defensively 24-7. He's arguably one of the better defenders in the league and is quite active on and off the ball. Not to mention he can block shots rather well for his height (would have been 2nd on the Wolves last year).
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 12, 2018 4:02:53 GMT -6
And therein lies the essence, we are not a better team after all this is done. Maybe we broke even in the Covington/Saric for Lavine/Markkanen swap. We really did not add any upside or any ability to get the team to the playoffs. We got no upside as the players we got in return have likely reached their ceiling in the NBA. There is a reason that Philadelphia got rid of these two players for Butler. Because they already knew that they did not have the skills to continue to build the team with. They are both limited players that hurt them more than helped. Fans in Philly are happy they are gone after having seen them on the court and what they bring. Sports radio for the last year in Philly has been very critical of both players and the need to have someone else on the team to be able to get to another level. And not in the fickle way that fans are, in a reasonable criticism that neither player fits long term on a winning team. Saric certainly has not reached his potential in the league. Covington probably has, but he is a great defensive player with size, which is what every good team needs. You can't judge anything on the reaction of Philly fans. They are the worst fans in professional sports and rip on everybody, all the time. You don't get equal value when trading away a star player, but I felt like we fleeced Chicago when we traded for Butler. So, at the end of the day, it's probably a wash. We gave up Lavine's exciting offense for Covington's lockdown defense, and I think we have yet to determine if Saric or Markkanen will have the better career. Dunn and the 2nd round pick are equivalent, in my book. Minnesota fans threw a flask at a ref and hot dogs at Knoblauch. Trash behavior is a thing regardless of city. Most Philly fans are generally just as rose-colored glass wearing as a chunk of Minnesota's fanbase is, just minus the passive-aggressive "aw shucks, we'll get em next time". They demand effort and hard work. That said, they'll cheer a guy on harder when he's trying and having a bad year. My favorite Philly "counter the narrative" example was Pat Burrell's .200ish season in the 2003. I was at a game where Thome got intentionally walked so the pitcher could go after Burrell (at the time Burrell was down in the .190's). Burrell gets an ovation when he comes up and then hits a 3-run HR. Gets a standing O and a curtain call. Gets another standing O in his next at-bat. The fans will support a guy when he's struggling but continues to plug away. They won't support half-hearted dog efforts. Going to my earlier point, Saric's struggles this year are a combination of international play fatigue *and* bigger fundamental problems in Philadelphia's offense this year (passes are down about 20% from last year) that have little to do with Saric and more to do with the fact that Fultz and Shamet are getting a lot of minutes (and mucking things up in the process). The team's a bit younger and doesn't have Belinelli and Ilyasova out there to provide some veteran savvy.
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Post by stretcharmstrong on Nov 12, 2018 6:44:53 GMT -6
Your narrative of Philadelphia being fickle is very true. They are very hot and cold on players depending on performance. But, that does not explain why fans have generally been ready for Covington, Saric, etc. to not be on the team. You indicate that Covington is active, etc. Well that is just the type of player you say Philadelphia fans like. Why then the complaints on Covington and others the team has jettisoned? Precisely because you cannot build a winning team with them. The problems of the players got exposed in the playoffs last season. Which is exactly why Philadelphia has 4 players no longer on the roster from last season. Can you share with the forum why Philly fans got tired of Saric and Covington?
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Post by tjstyles on Nov 12, 2018 8:32:37 GMT -6
I tend to agree with you. I wish we could just hit the reset button and have kept all those players. Although the playoff appearance does add some value for me, and it wouldn't have happened without Butler on the team. Sub out Thibs, sub in Mitchell, make the above trade - and I think we would have made it last year. Sub out Thibs, sub in a Magic 8 Ball, make the trade above - and I think we would have made it last year.
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Post by manilawolf on Nov 12, 2018 8:38:10 GMT -6
Can you share with the forum why Philly fans got tired of Saric and Covington? I am reading all the comments on Liberty Ballers, and the majority of posters are sad to see Saric and Covington go. I suppose SOME fans are tired of them, but if Liberty Ballers offers a representative sample of Sixers' fans, then I think both players are mostly held in high regard by their fan base.
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Post by The Country Club on Nov 12, 2018 8:59:24 GMT -6
Can you share with the forum why Philly fans got tired of Saric and Covington? I am reading all the comments on Liberty Ballers, and the majority of posters are sad to see Saric and Covington go. I suppose SOME fans are tired of them, but if Liberty Ballers offers a representative sample of Sixers' fans, then I think both players are mostly held in high regard by their fan base. r/sixers is mostly pro-RoCo and Saric as well. Most of the non-sports radio crowd and more savvy hoop community like both of them a lot. Were there 76ers fans willing to move Saric and/or Covington for Kawhi? You bet. But I don't think it means the 76ers fans in general are happy to see them gone...especially since Butler isn't as good a player as Kawhi.
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